The Commandments of the New Covenant

[Van]

Hi JonC, yes we disagree on what Matthew 23:13 says. "nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." To claim this does not mean anyone was in fact entering is to "take away" from the text." If the idea was hypothetical, it would read "nor do you allow those who might be entering to go in." Not how it reads.

Returning to the subject, teaching disciples all that Christ commanded, cannot be nullified by claiming we do not need to learn all that Christ commanded. There are over 70 instructions in Matthew. Why is it not one "disciple" on this board agrees we need to learn them and teach them?

 

[JonC]

Hi JonC, yes we disagree on what Matthew 23:13 says. "nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." To claim this does not mean anyone was in fact entering is to "take away" from the text." If the idea was hypothetical, it would read "nor do you allow those who might be entering to go in." Not how it reads.

Oh, I don't think it is a hypothetical at all. I just do not think that it is in my power to effectually deny salvation to someone who is "being saved" or entering the Kingdom (even if my teachings were denying entry). The verse doesn't speak to people entering but to people who deny entry. I think that you are misreading the passage (we both think the other is reading into the passage). But I am also not saying that people were not entering the Kingdom. They indeed were.

Returning to the subject, teaching disciples all that Christ commanded, cannot be nullified by claiming we do not need to learn all that Christ commanded. There are over 70 instructions in Matthew. Why is it not one "disciple" on this board agrees we need to learn them and teach them?

I am not really sure how my comments led you to think otherwise, but I agree that we need to study and learn Scripture. We are to obey Jesus' commandments. We struggle with the flesh, and the more we grow in Christ the more we overcome our "old man." This is sanctification, and I do not see how one can be a disciple of Christ except through obedience.

 

[kyredneck]

I have rarely found people who deny Matthew 28:19-20

I deny that it was given to common every day Joes like you and me. It was given to the apostles and they fulfilled it magnificently.

 

[Joloiet]

I deny that it was given to common every day Joes like you and me. It was given to the apostles and they fulfilled it magnificently.

John 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth,
but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life,
which the Son of man shall give unto you:
for him hath God the Father sealed.

Is this commandment of Jesus to us or for someone else?

 

[Van]

Hi JonC, there are many passages in scripture that teach us to be beware of false teachers. So once again, we profoundly disagree. "Everyday Joes" teaching mistaken doctrine can derail the lost and cause them to miss the narrow way that leads to life.

And again, I want to be clear, by defining "entering the kingdom" vice "being saved." Once God credits our faith as righteousness, God and God alone places us spiritually in Christ. That action saves us. No one can stop God from transferring us from the realm of darkness into the Kingdom of His Son, So I am talking about presenting the gospel, and the command, "be reconciled to God." This is where we can be derailed, where false teachers can present another gospel.

Lastly JonC, yet another board contributor, has denied Christ's command to make disciples, the great commission. Unless we have common ground, and specifically know all that Christ commanded as applicable to us, we are failing to serve Him obediently. I believe Matthew 28:19-20 is a command for all believers, all "everyday Joes."

 

[JonC]

Hi JonC, there are many passages in scripture that teach us to be beware of false teachers. So once again, we profoundly disagree. "Everyday Joes" teaching mistaken doctrine can derail the lost and cause them to miss the narrow way that leads to life.

And again, I want to be clear, by defining "entering the kingdom" vice "being saved." Once God credits our faith as righteousness, God and God alone places us spiritually in Christ. That action saves us. No one can stop God from transferring us from the realm of darkness into the Kingdom of His Son, So I am talking about presenting the gospel, and the command, "be reconciled to God." This is where we can be derailed, where false teachers can present another gospel.

Lastly JonC, yet another board contributor, has denied Christ's command to make disciples, the great commission. Unless we have common ground, and specifically know all that Christ commanded as applicable to us, we are failing to serve Him obediently. I believe Matthew 28:19-20 is a command for all believers, all "everyday Joes."

Van, please clarify for me if you are accusing me of denying the "great commission". I am not sure because of the comma. Thanks

As for the first part, I do believe false teachers become stumbling blocks. I think they are accountable even when those they deny entry do enter the kingdom. But perhaps more importantly we do disagree on entering the kingdom and being saved being different things. Scripture uses "entering the kingdom," "saved," and "eternal life" interchangeably. So I do not know that we should draw a stark divide.


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[Van]

Hi JonC, why would you think I accuse you of denying the great commission. Post #23 provides the denial, and you did not write it!!!

Next, please provide any reference to any scripture where "entering the kingdom" was used interchangeable with being saved!! For example when God transfers us from the realm of darkness "into" the Kingdom of His Son, we are saved, it is a done deal. Matthew 5:20, 7:21, 18:3, 19:23, all refer to being in the kingdom or not, and thus are used interchangeably with being saved.

1) If the great commission is not applicable to us, see post 23, then how many other commands of Christ are thought not to apply to every day Joes? If we cannot agree as to exactly what they are, how can we make disciples?

2) I believe Matthew 23:13 is dealing with people who are seeking God, trying to grasp the gospel, and thus are in the process of entering the Kingdom, yet have not come to a wholehearted faith in Christ. Either you are saved (in Christ) or you are not (not in Christ.)

3) It is a hard concept that our failure to carry out our part of the great commission results in lives being lost. Many deny it. Do you?

 

[JonC]

Hi JonC, why would you think I accuse you of denying the great commission. Post #23 provides the denial, and you did not write it!!!

Thanks for your reply, brother. That's what I thought but I was not fully sure (the second comma in your statement made me wonder, but thanks for clarifying as my initial thoughts were correct and we agree on that point).

Next, please provide any reference to any scripture where "entering the kingdom" was used interchangeable with being saved!! For example when God transfers us from the realm of darkness "into" the Kingdom of His Son, we are saved, it is a done deal. Matthew 5:20, 7:21, 18:3, 19:23, all refer to being in the kingdom or not, and thus are used interchangeably with being saved.

Sure. You have one reference right here - Matthew 19. The ruler asks what he should do to obtain eternal life (αἰώνιος ζωή), to which Jesus equates as entering the kingdom of heaven (εἰσέρχομαι βασιλεία οὐρανός), and the disciples refer to as being saved (σῴζω). If one enters the Kingdom he is saved. If one is saved he is in the Kingdom. If someone has eternal life they are saved/in the Kingdom. If one is saved/in the Kingdom they have eternal life. It's a matched set...can't have one without the others.

1) If the great commission is not applicable to us, see post 23, then how many other commands of Christ are thought not to apply to every day Joes? If we cannot agree as to exactly what they are, how can we make disciples?

All commands to us are applicable. All commands to the disciples are not necessarily applicable. We are not, for example, supposed to go to Jerusalem and await the coming of the Holy Spirit. We are not commanded to tell no one of Jesus' miracles. But the command to witness is given to the Church....we are partakers in the ministry of reconciliation - no excuses are warranted or accepted. It applies.

2) I believe Matthew 23:13 is dealing with people who are seeking God, trying to grasp the gospel, and thus are in the process of entering the Kingdom, yet have not come to a wholehearted faith in Christ. Either you are saved (in Christ) or you are not (not in Christ.)

I have no doubt that many were seeking God only to find the Jews a stumbling block. Heck, the Jews were seeking God only to find Christ a stumbling block. I am not sure your point here. If it is that those Jews actually prevented God's grace then I disagree, but if it is that people were turning to Christ yet the Jews were denying access to the kingdom then we agree.

3) It is a hard concept that our failure to carry out our part of the great commission results in lives being lost. Many deny it. Do you?

Those who deny it are wrong.

 

[Aaron]

John 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth,
but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life,
which the Son of man shall give unto you:
for him hath God the Father sealed.

Is this commandment of Jesus to us or for someone else?

Being spoken to the multitude, it is for all.

 

[agedman]

Is it possible for mere mortals to prevent what God has chosen to happen?

Reading some responses on this thread would seem that there are some posts that would indicate that heathen mortals can actually prevent what God has chosen to happen.

 

[Van]

Hi JonC, no where in Matthew 19 does Jesus equating entering the kingdom with being saved. Again the idea is if you have entered (past tense) then you are saved. If not, you are not saved.

Unless we define the commands and instructions of Christ, applicable to us, we cannot carry out the great commission.

Why is it that no one, so far, has agreed? Is it because they were not taught all that Christ commanded?

 

[Van]

I see another from the unnamed doctrine has once again made the claim false teachers cannot prevent people from being saved. These exhaustive determinists are wrong, no scripture will be forthcoming. Matthew 23:13 is crystal.

 

[Van]

John 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth,
but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life,
which the Son of man shall give unto you:
for him hath God the Father sealed.

Is this commandment of Jesus to us or for someone else?

Spot on Joioiet,

About how many different commands for us to you think are in Matthew? I say over 70!

 

[Joloiet]

2 John
Chapter 1
9: Whosoever transgresseth,
and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ,
he hath both the Father and the Son.

What is the doctrine of Christ?

 

[JonC]

Hi JonC, no where in Matthew 19 does Jesus equating entering the kingdom with being saved. Again the idea is if you have entered (past tense) then you are saved. If not, you are not saved.

Unless we define the commands and instructions of Christ, applicable to us, we cannot carry out the great commission.

Why is it that no one, so far, has agreed? Is it because they were not taught all that Christ commanded?

I'm not exactly sure who has disagreed that we are not to obey Christ. I certainly have not. I do disagree that people must enter the kingdom in order to be saved, but other than that for my part I've repeatedly said we are to obey Christ.

 

[agedman]

I'm not exactly sure who has disagreed that we are not to obey Christ. I certainly have not. I do disagree that people must enter the kingdom in order to be saved, but other than that for my part I've repeatedly said we are to obey Christ.

Van's contention is that folks can actually hinder or prevent someone from being saved. He centers his argument upon the Matthew passage.

He rejects that salvation is by the work of God through the Scriptures used by Holy Spirit and as such makes salvation solely dependent human effort which will determine one to either enter, not enter or being prevented from entering. That some will have such power as to actually prevent others who might enter from actually entering.

As a result, Van places great emphasis upon the fact that humans determine who, where and when salvation occurs. Very similar thinking as with the Roman Catholics.

 

[percho]

2 John
Chapter 1
9: Whosoever transgresseth,
and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ,
he hath both the Father and the Son.

What is the doctrine of Christ?

The kingdom of God and that men born of woman must be born from above in order to enter therein. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. IMHO

To add: Those whom God has given the Spirit of adoption abides in love. The command of Christ; Love one another.

 

[Van]

I see the unnamed doctrine advocate has slandered me once again, post # 36. In this thread I wrote we are saved by God alone. Thus he posts slanderous fiction. He addresses me and not the topic. What my view is is "everyone believing into Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. And it is God and God alone who credits our faith as righteousness (or not) and puts us spiritually in Christ, or not.

Pay no attention to how the unnamed doctrine advocates characterize the views of others.

 

[Van]

2 John
Chapter 1
9: Whosoever transgresseth,
and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ,
he hath both the Father and the Son.

What is the doctrine of Christ?

Here is how the NASB renders the verse: 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

The idea of "goes too far" appears to be to leave the teachings of Christ rather than abide in them. I do not think if a person sins (thus not keeping part of Christ's teachings) they necessarily are unsaved. If a person denies that Jesus is the Christ, then we can be sure he or she does not have God. That is how I read this instruction contextually.

But here (2 John) again we see the command to "abide" in the teachings of Christ, and yet no one on this forum has agreed there are more than 70 in Matthew alone.

If we study scripture, but never make an application to ourselves, i.e. what is Christ telling me to do, then the study is without merit.

 

[Joloiet]

The kingdom of God and that men born of woman must be born from above in order to enter therein. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. IMHO

To add: Those whom God has given the Spirit of adoption abides in love. The command of Christ; Love one another.

What and where is the Kingdom of God?