The Commandments of the New Covenant

[percho]

What and where is the Kingdom of God?

Relative to the earth I believe it to presently to be in the mind and intent of God relative to scripture as; And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Daniel 2:44 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are becomethe kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Rev 11:15

And I believe Zion will give birth to that kingdom at the coming of the Lord. As here; Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isa 66:8

 

[Joloiet]

I do not mean that you sell all of your possessions at all. But if you believe that this is what God is calling you to do, then by all means you need to do it.

Since the disciples listening to Jesus speak those words did not go and sell all they owned (for example, Peter did not sell all he owned, but he did use what was entrusted to his care for the Kingdom). Since Jesus’ words were not taken by even his closest followers who witnessed Him speak those statements as meaning we are commanded to sell all that we have then perhaps we overreach when we come to that conclusion. Maybe, just maybe, the correct interpretation hinges on the conclusion “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

Are you really to only have treasure in heaven? Yes. What we have here are not “treasures” but resources for the kingdom. We enjoy them, and that is not in itself wrong. But if those are our treasures, the things we set our minds on….what we live for…then this is idolatry. Tithing of ten percent only pointed to a time when we ourselves will be completely given over. We are to present our bodies as living sacrifices, brother. Everything we own and everything we are belong to Christ. This is repentance. All of your questions here are actually summed up in two words - Repent and Believe. Once that happens, everything else is descriptive of your life.

Compare this to what you have said to me.

Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh
shall of the flesh reap corruption;
but he that soweth to the Spirit
shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Do you still feel the same?

 

[JonC]

Compare this to what you have said to me.

Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh
shall of the flesh reap corruption;
but he that soweth to the Spirit
shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Do you still feel the same?

If you mean to ask do I think or believe the same, then yes. Galatians 6:8 confirms my conclusion that the issue is one of the heart and spirit rather than merely one of ridding oneself of materialistic goods. Think about this - where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

We need to carefully consider what we treasure."Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: Sibylla ti theleis; respondebat illa: apothanein thelo." Σiβιλλα τi θeλεις; respondebat illa: aποθανεiν θeλω."

Sent from my TARDIS

 

[Joloiet]

If you mean to ask do I think or believe the same, then yes. Galatians 6:8 confirms my conclusion that the issue is one of the heart and spirit rather than merely one of ridding oneself of materialistic goods. Think about this - where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

We need to carefully consider what we treasure."Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: Sibylla ti theleis; respondebat illa: apothanein thelo." Σiβιλλα τi θeλεις; respondebat illa: aποθανεiν θeλω."

Sent from my TARDIS

The only way back to heaven and God
with the keys to death and hell was the path
of resistance to sin even unto death
upon the cross.

Jesus opened the gate to heaven
back to God for all those who will
take up their own cross and follow
the very same path He took.

That is how you save yourself.

This is the doctrine of Christ.

Do you believe this is true?

 

[Van]

Absolutely not! We do not save ourselves. The teachings of Christ rule out that fiction. God and God alone saves us by transferring us spiritually from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. It is called positional sanctification. Once "in Christ" then as a born anew believer we take up our cross and follow Him. In this way, we enter heaven "abundantly" rather than as one escaping from a fire.

 

[JonC]

The only way back to heaven and God
with the keys to death and hell was the path
of resistance to sin even unto death
upon the cross.

Jesus opened the gate to heaven
back to God for all those who will
take up their own cross and follow
the very same path He took.

That is how you save yourself.

This is the doctrine of Christ.

Do you believe this is true?

No, I do not believe it is true we save ourselves by resisting sin. I believe that the doctrine of self salvation (even self salvation by following Christ as an example) is the antithesis of Christianity.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530A using Tapatalk

 

[agedman]

I see the unnamed doctrine advocate has slandered me once again, post # 36. In this thread I wrote we are saved by God alone. Thus he posts slanderous fiction. He addresses me and not the topic. What my view is is "everyone believing into Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. And it is God and God alone who credits our faith as righteousness (or not) and puts us spiritually in Christ, or not.

Pay no attention to how the unnamed doctrine advocates characterize the views of others.

Actually, Van, there was no slander involved.

Here is exactly what you wrote, "I see another from the unnamed doctrine has once again made the claim false teachers cannot prevent people from being saved."

Here is what I wrote, "He rejects that salvation is by the work of God through the Scriptures used by Holy Spirit and as such makes salvation solely dependent human effort which will determine one to either enter, not enter or being prevented from entering. That some will have such power as to actually prevent others who might enter from actually entering.

So, there was no slander.

You want to boldly state that salvation is all of God, yet also contend that some can prevent others from that same salvation.

You want to hold tightly in your view of "positional sanctification" as GOD removes one from the realm of darkness and places them in the light, yet claim that mere humans can thwart such an act by God by their own self determination or the determination of others.

So, no Van, there was no "slander" - rather just showing the inconsistency of your view which I would see faithful to some of the teaching of the "last rights" types of RCC persuasion. For do they not consider that the church holds the keys of life and death? That the church must open the gates or shut the gates? That the priest can actually prevent one from heaven or usher one into agreement and fellowship with God?

Is that not what you are contending that the religious righteous would do in Matthew?

 

[Joloiet]

No, I do not believe it is true we save ourselves by resisting sin. I believe that the doctrine of self salvation (even self salvation by following Christ as an example) is the antithesis of Christianity.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530A using Tapatalk

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself,
and unto the doctrine; continue in them:
for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself,
and them that hear thee.

Compare this to what you have said then tell me what you think.

 

[JonC]

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself,
and unto the doctrine; continue in them:
for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself,
and them that hear thee.

Compare this to what you have said then tell me what you think.

Again, when I compare 1 Timothy 4:16 to what I said I think (and thank you for not saying "feel") how wonderful a salvation God has wrought. Not only does God put His Spirit in us, not only does He make us new creations, but He also causes us to walk in His ordinances and we obey his commands.

1 Timothy 4:13-16 is not the first time that Paul instructs believers to persevere. Verses 15-16 is a summary of the previous verses. In verse 15 Paul tells Timothy to be diligent in these matters; give himself wholly to them so that everyone will see his progress. Verse 16 partly repeats these instructions, but more so it summarizes the whole. Watch your life and doctrine. Persevere in them. Why? Because in so doing he will save both himself and his hearers.

Paul's encouragement is to watch your life. Watch your doctrine. Persevere in them and you will save both yourself and those whom God will reach through you. We persevere. We are obedient. In this manner we "save ourselves" through perseverance. But note, that perseverance is of God; that obedience is Christ in us and not of ourselves. Did you ever think about the fact that when you are finally saved (looking at the future element of salvation) then you will be in the image of Christ (the you that would disobey will not exist in the you that is finally saved). You will be refined, completely sanctified. A new you. And right now, if you are saved, then there is a new you. When we are born anew our desires themselves change. We may struggle and not do that which we desire (that which we will) but our desire will be for God in a manner which was impossible before God's work of recreation.

But make no mistake. When we conclude that it is up to us to save ourselves by following the example of Jesus Christ then we have abandoned entirely the doctrine that Paul is encouraging Timothy to grasp and cling to at all costs.

 

[Joloiet]

Again, when I compare 1 Timothy 4:16 to what I said I think (and thank you for not saying "feel") how wonderful a salvation God has wrought. Not only does God put His Spirit in us, not only does He make us new creations, but He also causes us to walk in His ordinances and we obey his commands.

1 Timothy 4:13-16 is not the first time that Paul instructs believers to persevere. Verses 15-16 is a summary of the previous verses. In verse 15 Paul tells Timothy to be diligent in these matters; give himself wholly to them so that everyone will see his progress. Verse 16 partly repeats these instructions, but more so it summarizes the whole. Watch your life and doctrine. Persevere in them. Why? Because in so doing he will save both himself and his hearers.

Paul's encouragement is to watch your life. Watch your doctrine. Persevere in them and you will save both yourself and those whom God will reach through you. We persevere. We are obedient. In this manner we "save ourselves" through perseverance. But note, that perseverance is of God; that obedience is Christ in us and not of ourselves. Did you ever think about the fact that when you are finally saved (looking at the future element of salvation) then you will be in the image of Christ (the you that would disobey will not exist in the you that is finally saved). You will be refined, completely sanctified. A new you. And right now, if you are saved, then there is a new you. When we are born anew our desires themselves change. We may struggle and not do that which we desire (that which we will) but our desire will be for God in a manner which was impossible before God's work of recreation.

But make no mistake. When we conclude that it is up to us to save ourselves by following the example of Jesus Christ then we have abandoned entirely the doctrine that Paul is encouraging Timothy to grasp and cling to at all costs.

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved,
as ye have always obeyed,
not as in my presence only,
but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with
fear and trembling.

How did you work out your own salvation?
What did you do?

 

[JonC]

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved,
as ye have always obeyed,
not as in my presence only,
but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with
fear and trembling.

How did you work out your own salvation?
What did you do?

Well, I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me. So the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. It was not me, for while I was lost in sin and death Christ died for me. I did not earn my salvation, but was instead purchased with the precious blood of my Lord.

Now don't get me wrong. Before God saved me out of sin I had tried myself on my own terms. I just couldn't seem to get myself free from sin. I couldn't live up to my own standards much less Gods. So I am grateful that God saved me. I am nothing without Christ.

But enough about me. I surmise that you are a much better man than I. So, what about you...What did you do to earn that salvation I have so undeservingly been gifted?

Sent from my TARDIS

 

[Joloiet]

Well, I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me.

Does Christ living in you
give you the power to cease from committing any sin?

A. Yes, it does.

B. No, it does not?

 

[Joloiet]

I surmise that you are a much better man than I. So, what about you...What did you do to earn that salvation I have so undeservingly been gifted?

Sent from my TARDIS

I was born with it.
You have to be born into it by the Spirit of God.

I do not believe you have been gifted with anything.
I do however believe you believe you have
undeservingly been gifted with the salvation of God.

Just as the atheist tell me there is no God.

I know and believe there is a God.

But I do however believe they believe there is no God.

 

[Joloiet]

If God gave you something you did not deserve
then would that not be unholy?

For God is a Holy God.

If God gave you something you did not deserve
then would that not be unrighteousness?

It is written...

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine,
lest they trample them under their feet,
and turn again and rend you.

Is not the salvation of God, holy?

 

[Joloiet]

I will make this bold and profound statement.

All those who will live on the new Earth

will have deserved to be there.

All those who are cast into the lake of fire

will have deserved to be there.

 

[TCassidy]

If God gave you something you did not deserve then would that not be unholy?

No. It is called "grace." Defined as "unmerited (means you don't deserve it) favor."

 

[JonC]

I was born with it.
You have to be born into it by the Spirit of God.

I do not believe you have been gifted with anything.
I do however believe you believe you have
undeservingly been gifted with the salvation of God.

Just as the atheist tell me there is no God.

I know and beleive there is a God.

But I do however believe they believe there is no God.

Like I said, I was reborn, born anew of God. But when I came into this world I arrived in opposition to God. I was a sinner. That is fine that you do not believe God has saved me by His own grace. I have assured you that I did not earn my salvation, so the alternative is that you believe me lost. I am comfortable with that because just as my salvation did not depend on my own merit, it also does not depend on your acceptance.

Throughout the past several posts (starting around post#44) you indicate that you have worked out your own salvation and have saved yourself. Let's assume for a moment that the salvation you earned is the same salvation I received as a gift - not of myself (granted, you think mine a figment of my imagination). Would you be offended if God did save people by grace through faith while you worked to earn yours? Also as you saved yourself would you consider those of us who were saved by being purchased by the blood of Christ as equal brothers, or are we less so because God bought us and saved us while we were still sinners? If you have indeed worked you way into the Kingdom and have saved yourself, then it seems as if it would be unfair to refer to you and I as equal in God's Kingdom because I am here because of God, what He did, and not myself (I was purchased) and I am even now wearing a righteousness that belongs to Another, whereas you possess what must be a much superior righteousness of your own.

Sent from my TARDIS

 

[Joloiet]

No. It is called "grace." Defined as "unmerited (means you don't deserve it) favor."

Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth,
and said, Of a truth I perceive that God
is no respecter of persons:

Then that would make this statement a lie would it not?

 

[Joloiet]

Like I said, I was reborn, born anew of God. But when I came into this world I arrived in opposition to God. I was a sinner. That is fine that you do not believe God has saved me by His own grace. I have assured you that I did not earn my salvation, so the alternative is that you believe me lost. I am comfortable with that because just as my salvation did not depend on my own merit, it also does not depend on your acceptance.

Throughout the past several posts (starting around post#44) you indicate that you have worked out your own salvation and have saved yourself. Let's assume for a moment that the salvation you earned is the same salvation I received as a gift - not of myself (granted, you think mine a figment of my imagination). Would you be offended if God did save people by grace through faith while you worked to earn yours? Also as you saved yourself, authored your own salvation, would you consider those of us who were saved by being purchased by the blood of Christ as equally brothers, or are we less so because God bought us and saved us while we were still sinners?

Sent from my TARDIS

I believe you believe all this, I do not believe you have been reborn.

Just like you believe God is going to give you His salvation
when you are not worth saving or deserve to be saved.

I do not believe the
HOLY and RIGHTEOUS
God

Will give His salvation to those who are not worth saving.

God does not do anything that is not worth it.

 

[JonC]

Just like you believe God is going to give you His salvation
when you are not worth saving or deserve to be saved.
I do not believe the
HOLY and RIGHTEOUS
God
Will give His salvation to those who are not worth saving.

Yes, I think that we have established the fact that you believe my salvation is a delusion. And I've granted you that belief because of the misunderstanding that men of themselves merit salvation and deserve to be saved (and I know when I was saved I did not deserve it). That's why I said let's just suppose that God saves people by grace through faith. Hypothetically, if God saves people on the basis of Christ's atoning work on the Cross as grace and not of works...would you consider these people to be your equals since they did not earn their salvation by their own merit?

In other words, let's take for granted that you are saved and you saved yourself. Let's take for granted that God saved me through grace and I did not merit salvation. Is this something that you would consider unfair? Does it make God unjust? Would our salvation have the same effect?