The Contextual Israel in Romans 11:26

[Dr. Walter]

You are one confused mixed up dude!

You have been ranting and raving over Romans 9:8 as your proof text that there is a ISRAEL which consists ONLY of those born after the flesh. Well, is there or isn't that one definition of "Israel" you have been consistently denying is the true Israel of God????????

The "remnant" of Israel are SPIRIT BORN Jews and not one Gentile among them. You have consistently placed them not in the Romans 9:8 Israel but in your SPIRITUALIZED Israel consisting of Jews and Gentiles. Well, are they or are they not in your spiritualized Israel OR are they part of that Israel you have consistently defined as Jews born "after the flesh"????? Make up your mind!

In your previous post you argued that the "remnant" is to be called the nation of Israel as well and you quoted 1 Pet. 2:9 I quote:

Quote:
Nobody denies there is a "remnant" within the nation -DW

Yes, and it was the Nation of Israel also. A Spiritual Nation 1 Pet 2:9 - SBG


You have TWO ethnic Israel's! You define one that consists ONLY of the flesh without ANY spirit born among them. Has not that been you repeated and consistent rant and raving since day one of this debate??? Are you now going to widen the definition from a "Israel" ONLY AFTER THE FLESH to another definition of a MIXTURE of after the flesh and after the spirit Jews? Which one is it? It can't be both "ONLY" and "BOTH" at the same time?

However, it does not matter how you define it because NONE OF YOUR DEFINITIONS will make YOUR THEORY fit Romans 11:9-11 and NONE OF YOUR DEFINITIONS will be able to answer the problems I list below:

dw
There are Two Israel's Rom 9:6 one is comprised solely of Abraham's Physical seed according to the flesh, that Nation of Israel is not God's Children Rom 9:8, also there is a Israel that belong to Abraham's Spiritual Children, that Israel is comprised of both jews, some of Abraham's Physical descendants and Gentiles who are none Jews but still Abraham's Spiritual descendants. Those are the Children of Promise. Now during the OC the majority of Spiritual Israel were ethnic jews who had been born again, but they were the small minority in National Israel. Any Covenant Faithfulness to National Israel was for the sake of the small minority of remnant jews who were spiritual. The small minority of physical jews who were spiritual were also the Nation of Israel, again there are Two Israels Rom 9:6 both are the Nation of Israel.

This Nation of Israel Ps 33:

12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

That Nation is the Spiritual Nation 1 Pet 2:9

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Under the Old Covenant this Holy Nation, Chosen generation was only the very small remnant in National Israel, now its comprised of both ethnic jews and gentiles.

SBG cannot harmonize his interpretation of Israel with Romans 11:9-11 for the following obvious reasons.

1. The Israel in Romans 11:9-11 are CHRIST REJECTORS not "spiritual" Israel.

2. The CHRIST REJECTING Israel in Romans 11:9-11 is the stated reason why God forsook THIS KIND OF ISRAEL and brought salvation to the Gentiles (v. 11) but that cannot be said about "spiritual" or "remnant" Israel as God has not forsook them to go to the Gentiles as they are presently being saved in every generation (v. 5).

3. The CHRIST REJECTING Israel in Romans 11:11 is the SAME ISRAEL that David describes in Romans 11:9-10. It is the SAME ISRAEL that Elijah described in his day as well in Romans 11:2-3. Neither Elijah or David or Paul is speaking about "remnant" Israel but about the SAME ISRAEL that has historically rejected Christ and rebelled against God so that God turned away from THIS KIND OF ISRAEL unto the Gentiles.

4. The CHRIST REJECTING Israel in Romans 11:2-3 and 11:9-11 or the SAME ISRAEL in Elijah's day, in David's day and now in Paul's day that has continued from Elijah to Paul's day in REBELLION against God and in REJECTION of Christ are continuing in their stumbling, continuing in their fall, but this is not true of the "remnant" Israel but remnant Israel in Elijah's day was saved, in David's day was saved and in Paul's day is being saved (v. 5).

5. The CHRIST REJECTING Israel in Romans 11:11 will not continue in their "fall" so as to be irreversably fallen as Paul in the strongest words deny they will continue in that fallen condition "God forbid." However, that fallen condition had contined in Elijah's day, in David's day and in Paul's day so that God turned to the Gentiles UNTIL that SAME CHRIST REJECTING ISRAEL is made jealous (v. 11) and "UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" and then that same CHRIST REJECTING Israel that continued in their stumbling in Elijah's day and in David's day and in Paul's day becomes a CHRIST RECIEVING Israel WHEN Christ's Second Advent occurs (Rom. 11:25-28) and "all Israel" MEANING "all" rather than "remnant" MEANING "all" Israel as a NATION will be saved. MEANING in contrast to their previous history AS A NATION in Elijah's day, and in David's day and in Paul's day - the SAME Israel AS A NATION that had continued in CHRIST REJECTION. This is not true of "remnant" Israel in Elijah's day (v. 3) or in David's day or in Paul's day or in our day.

Will SBG deal with the above evidence in any kind of contextual and substance response? No! He will continue to JUMP out of the context and/or PIT scriptures against scriptures because HE CANNOT DO ANY KIND OF SOUND WORD BY WORD EXEGESIS OF ROMANS 11:9-11 because if he attempts to do so it will expose his interpretation as only a HALF truth.

 

[savedbymercy]

Rom 11:12

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Now Paul is saying, If through National Israel fall, the rest of the world comes into experiencing Gods rich mercy through Christ, and that by National Israel's diminishing, the riches of the gentiles, then how much more richness [rewarding] will it be when ethnic Jews become converted to Jesus Christ through their Ministry ?

You see now is a reversal, National Israel at one time where the True Worship of God was, because of the Tabernacle and Temple [ both types ] and gentiles came there [ some did ] to seek and to worship, now would become a ripe field as the rest of the heathen world for evangelism, by non Jewish believers of the gentile world. In other words, there will be ethnic Jews coming to know Jesus Christ through gentile evangelism, and so the gentiles [ or church] is made even more richer by now having the privilege to bring the gospel to heathen Jews.


Isa 60:16

16Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Remember Jesus words in Matt 21:43

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Hence Elect jews within the rejected nation, when they come to Faith in Christ, it would be the fruit of the Gentile Church.

Their fulness, this is not to be taken as a National conversion, but a branch by branch grafting in, individual ethnic Jews, just as the grafting in of the gentiles were by individuals and not whole nations !

 

[Dr. Walter]

Again, I am not a prophet, but I predicted you would continue to ignore the evidence I placed before you now 5 different times. I also told the readers that you could not answer them and so you would not even attempt to because you are not on this forum to discuss anything but to propanganize your outright lies.

But I will give you one more opportunity to prove I am wrong. Here are the questions one more time:

SBG cannot harmonize his interpretation of Israel with Romans 11:9-11 for the following obvious reasons.

1. The Israel in Romans 11:9-11 are CHRIST REJECTORS not "spiritual" Israel.

2. The CHRIST REJECTING Israel in Romans 11:9-11 is the stated reason why God forsook THIS KIND OF ISRAEL and brought salvation to the Gentiles (v. 11) but that cannot be said about "spiritual" or "remnant" Israel as God has not forsook them to go to the Gentiles as they are presently being saved in every generation (v. 5).

3. The CHRIST REJECTING Israel in Romans 11:11 is the SAME ISRAEL that David describes in Romans 11:9-10. It is the SAME ISRAEL that Elijah described in his day as well in Romans 11:2-3. Neither Elijah or David or Paul is speaking about "remnant" Israel but about the SAME ISRAEL that has historically rejected Christ and rebelled against God so that God turned away from THIS KIND OF ISRAEL unto the Gentiles.

4. The CHRIST REJECTING Israel in Romans 11:2-3 and 11:9-11 or the SAME ISRAEL in Elijah's day, in David's day and now in Paul's day that has continued from Elijah to Paul's day in REBELLION against God and in REJECTION of Christ are continuing in their stumbling, continuing in their fall, but this is not true of the "remnant" Israel but remnant Israel in Elijah's day was saved, in David's day was saved and in Paul's day is being saved (v. 5).

5. The CHRIST REJECTING Israel in Romans 11:11 will not continue in their "fall" so as to be irreversably fallen as Paul in the strongest words deny they will continue in that fallen condition "God forbid." However, that fallen condition had contined in Elijah's day, in David's day and in Paul's day so that God turned to the Gentiles UNTIL that SAME CHRIST REJECTING ISRAEL is made jealous (v. 11) and "UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" and then that same CHRIST REJECTING Israel that continued in their stumbling in Elijah's day and in David's day and in Paul's day becomes a CHRIST RECIEVING Israel WHEN Christ's Second Advent occurs (Rom. 11:25-28) and "all Israel" MEANING "all" rather than "remnant" MEANING "all" Israel as a NATION will be saved. MEANING in contrast to their previous history AS A NATION in Elijah's day, and in David's day and in Paul's day - the SAME Israel AS A NATION that had continued in CHRIST REJECTION. This is not true of "remnant" Israel in Elijah's day (v. 3) or in David's day or in Paul's day or in our day.

Will SBG deal with the above evidence in any kind of contextual and substance response? No! He will continue to JUMP out of the context and/or PIT scriptures against scriptures because HE CANNOT DO ANY KIND OF SOUND WORD BY WORD EXEGESIS OF ROMANS 11:9-11 because if he attempts to do so it will expose his interpretation as only a HALF truth.

Rom 11:12

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Now Paul is saying, If through National Israel fall, the rest of the world comes into experiencing Gods rich mercy through Christ, and that by National Israel's diminishing, the riches of the gentiles, then how much more richness [rewarding] will it be when ethnic Jews become converted to Jesus Christ through their Ministry ?

You see now is a reversal, National Israel at one time where the True Worship of God was, because of the Tabernacle and Temple [ both types ] and gentiles came there [ some did ] to seek and to worship, now would become a ripe field as the rest of the heathen world for evangelism, by non Jewish believers of the gentile world. In other words, there will be ethnic Jews coming to know Jesus Christ through gentile evangelism, and so the gentiles [ or church] is made even more richer by now having the privilege to bring the gospel to heathen Jews.


Isa 60:16

16Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Remember Jesus words in Matt 21:43

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Hence Elect jews within the rejected nation, when they come to Faith in Christ, it would be the fruit of the Gentile Church.

Their fulness, this is not to be taken as a National conversion, but a branch by branch grafting in, individual ethnic Jews, just as the grafting in of the gentiles were by individuals and not whole nations !

 

[Dr. Walter]

Now Paul is saying, If through National Israel fall, the rest of the world comes into experiencing Gods rich mercy through Christ, and that by National Israel's diminishing, the riches of the gentiles, then how much more richness [rewarding] will it be when ethnic Jews become converted to Jesus Christ through their Ministry ?

Take a look at the lying hpocrisy SBG plainly advertises in the above statement. Look at his use of the words "National Israel" used in the first two times above when talking about "their" fall. But when it comes to "their" FULLNESS or salvation he drops "national Israel" and replaces it with "ethnic Jews." He somehow IMAGINES that "THEIR" fall changes into someone else when Paul says "THEIR" fullness! Do You see his plain lying hypocrisy?

Why do I call it lying hypocrisy? Because there is no pronoun change from the entity that falls to ANOTHER entity that is restored to "fulness" but he makes that change nevertheless when God's Word does not! If he would have been consistent his whole lying deceptive teaching would have been completely exposed for what it is.

Does he have any EXEGETICAL grounds in verses 9-12 to make this change? NO! If so, SHOW IT! Show the change of pronouns! He just changes God's Word to suit his own belly.

His obvious hypcrisy is emphasized by the fact that as he pick ups and then continues he reverts back to the terms "national Israel" in his very next statement:

You see now is a reversal, National Israelat one time where the True Worship of God was, because of the Tabernacle and Temple [ both types ] and gentiles came there [ some did ] to seek and to worship, now would become a ripe field as the rest of the heathen world for evangelism, by non Jewish believers of the gentile world.

However, when he has to talk about salvation he changes back to "ethnic Jews" in the very next phrase below. Does he do it based upon any exegetical basis found in verses 9-12? Is there any new entity or change of pronouns in text? NO!! He just changes God's word to suit his fancy:

In other words, there will be ethnic Jews coming to know Jesus Christ through gentile evangelism, and so the gentiles [ or church] is made even more richer by now having the privilege to bring the gospel to heathen Jews.

Their[/COLOR][/U][/B] fulness, this is not to be taken as a National conversion, but a branch by branch grafting in, individual ethnic Jews, just as the grafting in of the gentiles were by individuals and not whole nations !

Readers take a look at the pronouns in verses 9-12 and see if the pronoun "their" is used of any other entity in that context other than one and the same entity that is described as falling, stumbling and yet Paul denies they will fall completely but instead of a complete fall there will be a complete "FULLNESS"!



Here is exactly where SBG's lying heresy is fully exposed. Paul says that the entity "they" "their" and "them" STUMBLES but WILL NOT FALL COMPLETELY but SBG says the very reverse. He says that which STUMBLES will fall completely but will be restored to FULLNESS. IT IS WHAT STUMBLES THAT DOES NOT FALL. Paul says "God forbid" and SBG calls Paul a liar.


IF I AM WRONG THEN LET SBG PROVIDE EXEGETICAL GROUNDS FOR A DIFFERENT ONE STUMBLING THAT IS RESTORED FROM STUMBLING TO FULLNESSS? Provide the change of pronouns?


11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The same "they" who stumbled (reject Christ) are the same "they" that Paul says "God forbid" they should "fall" completely. The same "they" who stumble and fall into sin in verse 12 is the same "them" in verse 12 that is restored to "their FULLNESS"


This false teacher does what every false teacher does - CHANGE God's words to suit his own fancy - IGNORES the inspired words chosen by the Holy Spirit - pits scripture against scripture - jumps out of the context because it is too HOT for him to handle.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

The Israel in Romans 11:9-11 are CHRIST REJECTORS not "spiritual" Israel.

Members of Spiritual Israel by Nature are Christ rejectors. For instance, the Apostle Paul was a natural born jew who by nature was a Christ rejector. However Paul was also of Spiritual Israel, which meant His Spiritual relation with Abraham would trump His Physical relationship with Abraham. So it will be with any natural born jew, their Spiritual relation with Abraham will override their blindness and unbelief they share with their Natural Family of Abraham..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Members of Spiritual Israel by Nature are Christ rejectors. For instance, the Apostle Paul was a natural born jew who by nature was a Christ rejector. However Paul was also of Spiritual Israel, which meant His Spiritual relation with Abraham would trump His Physical relationship with Abraham. So it will be with any natural born jew, their Spiritual relation with Abraham will override their blindness and unbelief they share with their Natural Family of Abraham..

You have one messed up mind! Look at your own commentary on David's remarks in Romans 11:9-10. You explicitly denied that Romans 11:7-10 had any reference to "spiritual" Israel but was totally and only referring to NATIONAL Israel and I quote your words:

Those verses leading up to vs 11 are very important, for they were actually expressing the very mind of Christ on that nation and people, Israel according to the Flesh. He was not referring to Israel of the Election of Grace. - SBG (post #92).

You cannot have it both ways! You cannot deny Romans 11:7-10 refers to "spiritual" Israel and at the same time demand it does refer to "spiritual" Israel! So which is it?

Your theory will not fit Romans 11!

Those mentioned by David in Romans 11:9-10 are the very SAME as those referred to by Paul in Romans 11:11-12 - no change of pronouns.

Those mentioned by David in Romans 11:9-10 and by Paul in Romans 11:11-12 REMAIN CHRIST REJECTORS all during the period when salvation comes to Gentiles and will not change "UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" - v. 25

Your theory is simply wrong!

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Those mentioned by David in Romans 11:9-10 and by Paul in Romans 11:11-12 REMAIN CHRIST REJECTORS all during the period when salvation comes to Gentiles and will not change "UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" -

That is a lie. For Paul just had stated previously in vs 5

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Thats a remnant of physical jews, who were in National Israel who had yet been converted. Paul even states that some were the object of His ministerial efforts 1 Cor 9:19-22

19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



That is a lie. For Paul just had stated previously in vs 5

You sir, are the liar and proven to be a liar by your own commentary on Romans 11:7-10 where YOU SAID this passage cannot possibly be appled to the "remnant" elect (v. 5). Again here are your own words concerning Rom. 11:7-10

Those verses leading up to vs 11 are very important, for they were actually expressing the very mind of Christ on that nation and people, Israel according to the Flesh. He was not referring to Israel of the Election of Grace. - SBG (post #92).

However, in the last two posts you done a complete about face and now are saying that this passage refers to the "remnant" elect! In response to my comments on Rom. 11:9-11 you said:


Quote:
The Israel in Romans 11:9-11 are CHRIST REJECTORS not "spiritual" Israel. - DW

Members of Spiritual Israel by Nature are Christ rejectors. For instance, the Apostle Paul was a natural born jew who by nature was a Christ rejector. However Paul was also of Spiritual Israel, which meant His Spiritual relation with Abraham would trump His Physical relationship with Abraham. So it will be with any natural born jew, their Spiritual relation with Abraham will override their blindness and unbelief they share with their Natural Family of Abraham.. - SBG


You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth! That sir, is lying!

Neither can you argue there are TWO different subjects in this passage because the SAME PRONOUNS used in verses 7-10 continues to be the SAME SUBJECT described by the SAME PRONOUNS in verses 11-12 and the SAME ONES unto whom their table became a "stumblingstone" in verses 7-10 are the SAME ONES who stumbled (christ rejectors) over that stone in verse 11 and the SAME ONE who stumbled over that stone in verse 11 are the very SAME ONES that Paul said "God forbid" that their fall was PERMENANT but only temporary so that salvation would come to the Gentiles!

Now sir, salvation did not come to the Gentiles because the "remnant" became Christ rejectors but because Israel AS A NATION became Christ haters and therefore in addition to your own self-condeming commentary this contextual fact denies the possibility that the "remnant" of verse 5 are in view!!!! You sir, are the liar and caught red handed in your lie.

Furthermore, their "fall" is only TEMPORARY "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" and then they are restored to their "FULLNESS" (vv. 12,25).

You cannot say out of one side of your mouth that verses 7-10 cannot be applied to the remnant elect in verse 5 but out of the other side of your mouth it does refer to the elect remnant as that is the very definition of LYING!

Neither can you say those in verse 11-12 are the remnant because those in verse 11 STUMBLED over the STUMBLINGBLOCK in verses 9-10 which you deny can be applied to the remnant elect. Indeed, verse 11 denies it can be applied to anyone other than the SAME ONES David describes in verses 9-10 as the very SAME pronouns are used in verses 9-10 as in 11-12.

You sir are caught in your own lie!

 

[Dr. Walter]

Those verses leading up to vs 11 are very important, for they were actually expressing the very mind of Christ on that nation and people, Israel according to the Flesh. He was not referring to Israel of the Election of Grace. - SBG (post #92).


SBG's own commentary on verses 7-10 denies this passage can be applied to the "remnant" elect Israel but must be applied to Israel as a NATION.

SBG cannot harmonize his interpretation of Israel with Romans 11:9-11 for the following obvious reasons.

1. The Israel in Romans 11:9-11 are CHRIST REJECTORS not "spiritual" Israel.

2. The CHRIST REJECTING Israel in Romans 11:9-11 is the stated reason why God forsook THIS KIND OF ISRAEL and brought salvation to the Gentiles (v. 11) but that cannot be said about "spiritual" or "remnant" Israel as God has not forsook them to go to the Gentiles as they are presently being saved in every generation (v. 5).

3. The CHRIST REJECTING Israel in Romans 11:11 is the SAME ISRAEL that David describes in Romans 11:9-10. It is the SAME ISRAEL that Elijah described in his day as well in Romans 11:2-3. Neither Elijah or David or Paul is speaking about "remnant" Israel but about the SAME ISRAEL that has historically rejected Christ and rebelled against God so that God turned away from THIS KIND OF ISRAEL unto the Gentiles.

4. The CHRIST REJECTING Israel in Romans 11:2-3 and 11:9-11 or the SAME ISRAEL in Elijah's day, in David's day and now in Paul's day that has continued from Elijah to Paul's day in REBELLION against God and in REJECTION of Christ are continuing in their stumbling, continuing in their fall, but this is not true of the "remnant" Israel but remnant Israel in Elijah's day was saved, in David's day was saved and in Paul's day is being saved (v. 5).

5. The CHRIST REJECTING Israel in Romans 11:11 will not continue in their "fall" so as to be irreversably fallen as Paul in the strongest words deny they will continue in that fallen condition "God forbid." However, that fallen condition had contined in Elijah's day, in David's day and in Paul's day so that God turned to the Gentiles UNTIL that SAME CHRIST REJECTING ISRAEL is made jealous (v. 11) and "UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" and then that same CHRIST REJECTING Israel that continued in their stumbling in Elijah's day and in David's day and in Paul's day becomes a CHRIST RECIEVING Israel WHEN Christ's Second Advent occurs (Rom. 11:25-28) and "all Israel" MEANING "all" rather than "remnant" MEANING "all" Israel as a NATION will be saved. MEANING in contrast to their previous history AS A NATION in Elijah's day, and in David's day and in Paul's day - the SAME Israel AS A NATION that had continued in CHRIST REJECTION. This is not true of "remnant" Israel in Elijah's day (v. 3) or in David's day or in Paul's day or in our day.

Those verses leading up to vs 11 are very important, for they were actually expressing the very mind of Christ on that nation and people, Israel according to the Flesh. He was not referring to Israel of the Election of Grace. - SBG (post #92).

You cannot have it both ways! You cannot deny Romans 11:7-10 refers to "spiritual" Israel and at the same time demand it does refer to "spiritual" Israel! So which is it?

Your theory will not fit Romans 11!

Those mentioned by David in Romans 11:9-10 are the very SAME as those referred to by Paul in Romans 11:11-12 - no change of pronouns.

Those mentioned by David in Romans 11:9-10 and by Paul in Romans 11:11-12 REMAIN CHRIST REJECTORS all during the period when salvation comes to Gentiles and will not change "UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" - v. 25

Your theory is contradictory and is simply wrong!

 

[Dr. Walter]

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

1. Those in verse 11 have stumbled over the stumblingstone in verse 9 - Hence, David and Paul are speaking of the very SAME subject - NATIONAL ISRAEL.

2. To "stumble" over the "stumbling stone" is to REJECT CHRIST - Hence, those in verse 11 are CHRIST REJECTORS.

3. Paul denies that the SAME ONES who "stumbled" in verse 11 over the "stumblingstone" in verse 9 stumbled permenantly or completely to utter damnation. He says "God forbid" that they stumbled to a complete irreversably fall!

4. Hence, their "fall" is TEMPORARY and the time that this temporary stumbling concludes is defined precisely by the following context in verses 12-28.

a. Their fall is TEMPORARY so that salvation can come to the Gentiles - v. 11

b. Their fall is TEMPORARY until the Gentiles who receive God's blessing of salvaiton makes them "jealous" so UNTIL they are made Jeaslous - v. 11

c. Their fall is TEMPORARY until the time comes for "THEIR FULLNESS" - v. 12

d. Their FULLNESS does not occur UNTIL God "grafts them in again" - v. 22 and only what has been "cut off" can be grafted in "again" - National Israel

e. Their FULLNESS does not occur "UNTIL the FULLNESS of the Gentiles be come in" - v. 25

f. The FULLNESS of the Gentiles does not come in UNTIL Christ returns at the end of this age - v. 26

g. AT THE SECOND ADVENT their Temporary fall concludes, their cutting off concludes because God's purpose of salvation among the gentiles arrives at its "FULLNESS" and God "grafts them in again" and then "ALL Israel" as a nation shall be saved.



The CHRIST REJECTING Israel in Romans 11:11 will not continue in their "fall" so as to be irreversably fallen as Paul in the strongest words deny they will continue in that fallen condition "God forbid." However, that fallen condition had contined in Elijah's day, in David's day and in Paul's day so that God turned to the Gentiles UNTIL that SAME CHRIST REJECTING ISRAEL is made jealous (v. 11) and "UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" and then that same CHRIST REJECTING Israel that continued in their stumbling in Elijah's day and in David's day and in Paul's day becomes a CHRIST RECIEVING Israel WHEN Christ's Second Advent occurs (Rom. 11:25-28) and "all Israel" MEANING "all" rather than "remnant" MEANING "all" Israel as a NATION will be saved. MEANING in contrast to their previous history AS A NATION in Elijah's day, and in David's day and in Paul's day - the SAME Israel AS A NATION that had continued in CHRIST REJECTION. This is not true of "remnant" Israel in Elijah's day (v. 3) or in David's day or in Paul's day or in our day.

Those mentioned by David in Romans 11:9-10 are the very SAME as those referred to by Paul in Romans 11:11-12 - no change of pronouns.

Those mentioned by David in Romans 11:9-10 and by Paul in Romans 11:11-12 REMAIN CHRIST REJECTORS all during the period when salvation comes to Gentiles and will not change "UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" - v. 25

 

[savedbymercy]

Rom 11:13
Again:

Their fulness, this is not to be taken as a National Conversion, but a branch by branch grafting in, individual ethnic Jews, just as the grafting in of the gentiles were by individuals and not whole nations !

Now vs 13

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:


Paul was quite aware of His Purpose for Jesus Christ, His very reason for conversion notice:

Acts 9:15

15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Acts 22:21

21And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

It was the purpose of His ordination by the Apostles Gal 2:9

9And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Acts 13:

2As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them

And Paul is speaking to gentiles about this issue, because this is part of the gospel which paul preached unto them, in fact, the Jew First and also the Greek, for there is only one Gospel.

As we can see from His words written, He was honored to be called by God for such a task.

 

[Dr. Walter]

God's Word means nothing to you and that is plainly evident for several reasons:

1. You refuse to deal with the actual language of Romans 11:9-12. You either ignore or change the pronouns to suite your fancy.

2. You can't deal with the exegetical based arguments I have presented now seven different times. No response!

3. Your own words contradict your position and you won't or can't even respond to your own confusion.

Now you try this absolutely silly run and jump and pit routine as a last ditch effort to salvage your hersry. - Sad!

However, even this last attempt to explain away the langauge of Romans 11:9-12 to be applied presently in a "branch by branch grafting in" will not stand up the the text either!

Rom 11:13
Again:

Their fulness, this is not to be taken as a National Conversion, but a branch by branch grafting in, individual ethnic Jews, just as the grafting in of the gentiles were by individuals and not whole nations !

Your argument is false! Why? Because Paul says that the branches were "broken off that you might be grafted in"!

The "remnant" was NEVER broken off that the Gentiles might be grafted in because as you rightly pointed out in your last post the remnant are PRESENTLY BEING saved as they were being saved in the past in every generation - THEY WERE NEVER BROKEN OFF so that salvation coulld come to the Gentiles!!

What was broken off was ISRAEL AS A NATION and ISRAEL AS A NATION is what will be grafted in "AGAIN" as the term "AGAIN" can't be applied to the "remnant" who were NEVER BROKEN OFF IN THE FIRST PLACE!

You are teaching a false doctrine and you are perverting God's Word, twisting it, and tayloring it to fit your HALF truth! Anyone following our discussion that has two grains of common sense and two eyes that can see dimly can plainly see you don't know what you are talking about!

 

[Dr. Walter]

Here are the facts that SBG hasn't been able to deal with and won't be able to deal with concernng Romans 11:9-12.

1. The subject is the same in Romans 11:9-10 as in Romans 11:11-28 because the same pronouns are used. When Paul wants to distinguish Jews saved in every age from the nation of Israel he knows what term to distinguish them - "remnant" and he does not use that term in verses 7-28. He does not use that term because He is not talking about the "remnant" but he is talking about "ISRAEL AS A NATION."

2. The same ones whose table has become a "stumbling stone" in verse 9 are the very same ones who "stumble" (reject Christ) over that stumbling stone in verse 11 so that salvation will come to the Gentiles.

3. The same one who "stumbles" (rejects Christ) in verse 11 is the same one that Paul denies will fall irreversably in verse 11 but will be restored to "fullness" in verse 12 but that "fullness" will not occur "until the FULLNESS of the Gentiles be come in" and they will remain an "ENEMY" of the gospel for the sake of the Gentiles until that time (v. 28).

4. IT IS NOT THE FALL OF THE "REMNANT" THAT BRINGS SALVATION TO THE GENTILES BUT THE FALL OF ISRAEL AS A NATION THAT BRINGS SALVATION TO THE GENTILES. Paul did not wipe his feet off because the "remnant" rejected his message but because Israel as a People/Nation rejected his message and went to the Gentiles.

5. It is what was "broken off" that will God will "graft in AGAIN" and the "remnant" is never broken off in any generation as there is always a remnant in every generation (v. 5).

SBG takes a HALF truth and uses it to deny the other HALF truth concerning Israel. His HALF truth is that God has PRESENTLY cut them off, rejected them and turned to the Gentiles. His HALF truth is that salvation is the same for Jew and for Gentile. His HALF truth is that there is no salvation to those ONLY born after the flesh in any generation.

However, he has taken this HALF truth and denied the other HALF truth taught clearly in Romans 9-11 and that is one day in the future when "the fullness of the gentile" elect be "come in" then God will turn back to Israel as a Nation and "ALL" national Israel will be grafted back in "again" and will be born again and will be the ELECT NATION (Rom. 11:25-28).

However, presently they are "ENEMIES" of the gospel for the sake of the Gentiles whose "fullness" has not yet come in and therefore they will remain "ENEMIES" of the gospel "until the fulllness of the gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:28).

 

[Dr. Walter]

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:


Peter, James and John saw their calling to the Nation of Israel (Gal. 2:9) but recognized that God had sent Paul to the Gentiles. When James wrote his letter he addressed it to the "twelve tribes" scattered abroad.

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them

Paul is here talking about his PRESENT ministry in that PRESENT Generation in regard to those He knew God would save as the PRESENT "remnant" (v. 5). The words "some of them" are equal in meaning to "remnant" in verse 5 that God saves in every generation.

However, be sure to see and recognize that it is not this "remnant" that has fallen so that the salvation should come to the gentiles in verses 9-11 because if that were the case then salvation should have come to the Gentiles in the days of Elijah (vv. 2-3) or in the days of David (vv. 9-10) because only a remnant were saved in their days as well. No! Salvation has come to the Gentiles not because any jewish "remnant" has fallen but because Israel as a nation has fallen.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Paul now returns to take up what he left off in verse 12 in regard to the fall of the Nation of Israel so that salvation should come to the Gentiles with his argument that if their fall brought such a great blessing to the Gentile/world then how much more of a blessing to the world would be their salvation. Hence, if the "casting away of them" (Not "some of them" as in the former verse) as a NATION be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be - but an absolute miracle of quickening life of the spiritually dead.

Again, it is not the "remnant" or "some of them" that stumbled, but it was the NATION AS A WHOLE that stumbled and it was the NATION as a whole that is the "casting away" and "cut off."

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

The "firstfruit" is the first crop of fruit gathered in harvest that is given unto God. It is "holy" because it is "set apart" and given unto God. This is "the present remnant" of Israel that is being picked in every generation.

This separation of the "first fruit" results in the "lump" or the MASS of harvest that remains being "holy" as God blesses the "mass" of fruit still on the tree after the "firstfruit" are gathered and given to God. However, the giving of the "firstfruit" guarantees God's blessing upon the full harvest and they are therefore regarded holy. The "mass" represents the future gathering of Israel as a nation.

Paul is simply making a logical argument as to cause and effects in regard to harvest. The "remnant" is the firstfruit while the "mass" is Israel as a nation and the root represents the covenat with the father's. The "firstfruit" or "remnant" is the present harvest (v. 5) IN EVERY GENERATION but the FULL HARVEST has not yet come and won't until God's plan for the Gentiles be fulfilled.

In the mean while, Israel as a Nation has been "cut off" and the Gentiles have been grafted into the covenant of redemption and God is harvesting Gentiles.

The breaking off and grafting in HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH INDIVIDUAL SALVATION but with God's purpose of redemption in regard to the "firstfruits" of Israel or the "remnant" in every generation, the harvesting of the grafted in Gentiles and ultimately the final harvest of the "mass" of Israel after the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[Dr. Walter]

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The "remnant" were never broken off as they are the "firstfruit" gathered by God in every generation - in Elijah's generation (vv.2-3) in David's generation and in Paul's generation.

Israe as a Nation are broken off. Broken off is equal to "fall" in verses 11-12. All agree that it is Israel as a Nation that has been broken off.

They have been broken off by God for their rejection of Jesus as their Messiah. They have been broken off so that God may bring salvation to the Gentiles (v. 12) which is said the same way in verse 17 in the words "grafted in." The Gentiles have been grafted in "among them" that is the "remnant" which have not been cut off as they too are also being harvested by God in every generation.

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

It is at this point Paul begins to warn the Gentiles AS NATIONS who have been grafted in to a tree that represented ISRAEL AS A NATION against boasting. The "mass" [Israel as a nation] had been cut off so that Gentiles AS NATIONS could be grafted in and from among these GENTILE NATIONS God would call out a people. However, Paul's point is that the Gentiles were reaping the blessings given to Israel AS A NATION rather than due to their own merits as nations.


19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

This is true in regard to God's eternal purpose and plan. However, it was not because the Gentiles merited it but only because of God's mercy and the rejection of Christ by ISRAEL AS A NATION.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Paul is not talking about INDIVIDUAL salvation but rather NATIONAL privilege to be the sphere of God's redemptive work. God's sphere of redemptive work had previously been PRIMARILY focused upon ISRAEL AS A NATION but now God had turned to the GENTILE NATIONS to call out His elect. However, the time is coming when "the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" and God can and will break off the Gentile nations and graft back in again ISRAEL AS A NATION.

 

[Dr. Walter]

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Note that the condition is if the Gentile nations continue "IN HIS GOODNESS" rather than in their own goodness. That is, God has a plan which is "his good pleasure" and as long as they fall in line with God's good pleasure they will continue to be the focus of God's redemptive work. However, when "the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" then they will no longer remain grafted into the tree but will be cut off and then Israel as a nation will be grafted back in again because it is God's purpose and good pleasure to once again place His focus of redemptive work back on Israel as a nation. However, this time it will not be a "remnant" but instead the "fullness" of Israel will be his goal so that "ALL" Israel as a nation shall be saved.



23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul reasons with them that just as God broke them off due to their rejection of Christ AS A NATION God can also graft them back in "AGAIN" due to their faith in Christ. He continues to reason with the Gentiles that God can do this just as easily as God grafted them for the first time into the tame olive tree he could also just as easily break them off when they as NATIONS rebelled against God (which is predicted they will do AS NATIONS- they will come up against God).

Note the last phrase "into THEIR OWN olive tree"! Whose "own olive tree? Answer: ISRAEL AS A NATION because Jesus used the olive tree not to symbolize an "remnant" of Israel but to symbolize Israel AS A NATION!.

 

[Dr. Walter]

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

1. These verses are set in a very defined time zone - the end of the age

PROOF:

a. It is WHEN "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in"
b. It is WHEN "there shall come out of Zion the Deliverer"
c. It is "WHEN" the Deliverer "SHALL" turn the ungodliness from Jacob
d. It is WHEN "I SHALL take away their sins."
e. It is WHEN they are no longer "enemies for your sakes"

In regard to God's calling a people out of the Gentiles, the "fullness" of the Gentile elect has not yet "come in" as God is still saving Gentiles then, and today! Hence, this time has not yet arrived and yet the promised salvation cannot be Gentiles because it occurs AFTER the FULLNESS of gentiles be come in.

In regard to the "deliverer SHALL come out of Zion" it is obvious by the use of the FUTURE TENSE that Paul is speaking of something yet FUTURE from His own day. This cannot be A.D. 70 because the fullness of the Gentiles did not "come in" in A.D. 70 and that time event in verse 25 is given before this time event is given in verse 26. Hence, this refers to the time his second advent.

In regard to a FUTURE time of Paul's perspective the Deliver that comes out of Zion "SHALL" turn the ungodliness from Jacob is placed AFTER the Deliverer comes out of Zion not before and therefore cannot refer to the generational salvation of the "remnant" of Israel. Furthermore, the term "Jacob" is NEVER used of Gentiles but only of the NATION OF ISRAEL as an UNGODLY nation and that is the context here "the UNGODLINESS of Jacob".

In regard to a FUTURE time when the Deliverer "SHALL" take away their sins - this occurs AFTER the fullness of the Gentiles be come in (v. 25) and AFTER the deliverer comes out of Zion (v. 26) and AFTER the deliver turns Israel from its "UNGODLINESS" and therefore it cannot refer to the "remnant" then, now or any other time BEFORE the second Advent.

Finally, during this present time BEFORE the fullness of Gentile elect be come in, BEFORE the deliverer comes out of Zion, BEFORE he turns the ungodliness from Jacob, BEFORE he takes away their sins they are DURING ALL THIS TIME BEFORE these things occur "ENEMIES OF THE GOSPEL for your (gentiles) sake but neverthelesss "touching ELECTION they (enemies right now) are BELOVED for the "father's" sake.

Israel is God's "ELECT NATION" and election is TO salvation but that time come yet but will just as it comes according to God's time table for all His elect individual children of God (2 Thes. 2:13).

 

[Dr. Walter]

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

For the sake of the Gentiles,meaning for the sake of their salvation which has now come to them due to the fall of Israel AS A NATION, Israel AS A NATION is now the "enemies" of the gospel.

As we have repeatedly said, it is not the fall of the "remnant" that brought salvation to the Gentiles but the fall of Israel AS A NATION that has brought salvation to the Gentiles. Their "fall" was due to their "stumbling" over the "stumbling stone" or REJECTION OF CHRIST which is here described as "concerning the gospel, THEY ARE ENEMIES - Note the PRESENT TENSE - which tense again denies he is talking about he "remnant" as the "remnant" are PRESENT TENSE converts to the gospel (v. 5).

Even though they are NOW "enemies" of the Gospel they = Israel AS A NATION shall be "all" saved due to "election.' Therefore these PRESENT enemies are concerning "election" beloved as they "shall" be saved when Christ returns (vv. 26-27).

The certainity of the future salvation "concerning election" is irreversable as election is according to the eternal purpose of God before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13; Rom. 8:28-32) and therefore "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" without change because election is determined and therefore everything necessay to bring the to salvation will occur.

"THEY are enemies of the gospel for YOUR sake" - It is the fall of Israel AS A NATION that brought salvation to the Gentiles not the fall of the "remnant"! It is Israel AS A NATION that is PRESENTLY "broken off" not the "remnant." It is a contrast between Israel AS A NATION and Gentile NATIONS in regard to God's sphere of redemptive work. In the time past God's redemptive work was PRIMARILY restricted to Israel AS A NATION but now it is PRIMARILY restricted to the gentile NATIONS.

 

[Dr. Walter]

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

The words "in times past" speak of the 4000 years before God turned to the Gentiles. The words "in the time past" speak of the pre-fall condition of Israel AS A NATION when God's focus of redemptive work in calling out a people was primarily restricted to Israel AS A NATION in contrast to GENTILE NATIONS!

The word "now" has reference to the change of God's redemptive work from the sphere of Israel AS A NATION unto the GENTILE NATIONS "through" or because of the unbelief/stumbling/fall of Israel AS A NATION.

The second "now" also refers to the time period that continues "until the fullness of the gentiles be come in" as it is "now" in that time frame that "concerning the gospel they are enemies" and during that time frame "have these also NOW not believed,"

However, there a time coming that through the unbelief of the Gentiles God will turn from the Gentile NATIONS and have "mercy" again upon Israel AS A NATION. That time has not yet come and will not come "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" and "until...the deliverer SHALL come out of Zion" as it is at that explicit time "WHEN" he will take their sins away.

However, when that future time "SHALL" arrive it will be through the fall/stumbling/rejection of Christ by the Gentile nations that "mercy" that Israel AS A NATION "may receive mercy".

 

[Dr. Walter]

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The term "all" in this passage has for its antecedent "them" in the same verse which in turn is the same "them" in verse 31 - Israel AS A NATION. It refers to the same "all" in verse 26 - "ALL Israel" that God saves when Christ comes again.

This is easily demonstrated by the fact that Paul says "God hath concluded them all IN UNBELIEF." Whoever Paul is referring to they are "ALL IN UNBELIEF."

That is not true concerning the "remnant" as Paul is part of that remnant.

That is not true concerning the gentiles as the Gentiles Paul addresses are part of the Gentiles - believers.

The only entity in this passage who are "ALL IN UNBELIEF" are the ones he has been repeatingly described as "broken off" due to unbelief, "stumbled" and presently "concerning the gospel are enemies.

Moreover the grammatical evidence proves it is Israel AS A NATION he is speaking about as the same pronoun "them" has its antecedent in verse 31 "them" which in turn has its nearest noun antecedent in "Jacob" in verse 27 which in turns refers to "all Israel" in verse 26.

Israel is the "elect" nation of God and that is "election" (v. 28) unto eventual salvation at the precise time WHEN the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, WHEN the Deliverer SHALL come out of Zion, WHEN the Deliverer turns the ungodliness from Jacob, WHEN he shall take away their sins and that is all said in the FUTURE tense from Paul's perspective when he wrote this letter.

It shall happen as Paul predicted because God does not change his mind and so the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Hence, "ALL" Israel shall be saved because God has concluded "THEM ALL" in unbelief that he might have mercy upon "ALL" at that predicted time.