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The coupe de grace of deniers of original sin

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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Does the soul come from God or not?
Your question is misleading. All life comes from God: plants, all animals, etc. God created all. All life comes from Him.
Secondly, animals have souls.

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. (Genesis 1:30)
--Speaking of the animals God says that in them is "life." The Hebrew word for life is "nephesh" or soul. Animals have souls. They have life, the same life that a man has. The difference between man and animals is the spirit, not the soul. Man has a spirit in which he can communicate with God, whereas an animal cannot.

When an infant is born the spirit is separated from God. It will be separated from God until the time that he is born again, thus the necessity of the second birth. There is no such thing as "innocence" in this world today, since the entire creation is under The Curse. We are all born with a sin nature.
 
Your question is misleading. All life comes from God: plants, all animals, etc. God created all. All life comes from Him.
Secondly, animals have souls.

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. (Genesis 1:30)
--Speaking of the animals God says that in them is "life." The Hebrew word for life is "nephesh" or soul. Animals have souls. They have life, the same life that a man has. The difference between man and animals is the spirit, not the soul. Man has a spirit in which he can communicate with God, whereas an animal cannot.

When an infant is born the spirit is separated from God. It will be separated from God until the time that he is born again, thus the necessity of the second birth. There is no such thing as "innocence" in this world today, since the entire creation is under The Curse. We are all born with a sin nature.

The point I am getting at Brother is this. The soul comes from God, and He places it in the womb of the mother. The heart beating is evidence that there is life. Now, if God gives the soul(life), then that shows that the soul came from Him. Now, sin is a transgression of God's law, correct? What sin did that little soul commit to cause the seperation of the soul from God?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
The point I am getting at Brother is this. The soul comes from God, and He places it in the womb of the mother. The heart beating is evidence that there is life. Now, if God gives the soul(life), then that shows that the soul came from Him. Now, sin is a transgression of God's law, correct? What sin did that little soul commit to cause the seperation of the soul from God?
He is born with a sin nature.
The sin nature separates him from God. He is not born innocent. No one is. We all fall under the condemnation of sin. We are all under the curse.
We are sinners because of our sin nature.
We sin because of our nature.
We sin because we want to sin.
Both of the above statements are true.
 
He is born with a sin nature.
The sin nature separates him from God. He is not born innocent. No one is. We all fall under the condemnation of sin. We are all under the curse.
We are sinners because of our sin nature.
We sin because of our nature.
We sin because we want to sin.
Both of the above statements are true.

All of these attributes are concerning our fleshly bodies, and I agree with everything you posted. But what sin does a baby(new born as well) willfully commit that causes condemnation of their soul?
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Anger, wrath, selfishness, stubbornness -- sounds like a Calvinist describing his idea of the character of God to me. Which of these is a sin, btw? Can you show me the chapter and verse?

Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:


Do you cognitively recognize how desperate you sound when you talk about your own experiences as a father? It sounds like you utterly failed as a father and are now trying to justify yourself. Trying to blame God for failing at a responsibility He gave you to train up your children in the way they should go.

Always make something personal when you cannot deal with Biblical substance! I could just as easily say you sound as a father who denies your children have faults? You sound like you better than thou and live above sin and your children are simply a chip of the old PERFECT block!! I just admit the truth while you live in a fairy tale land of polyanna.

When Adam sinned, do you believe he had a sin nature that forced him to do so? Since you are a committed Calvinist, you must believe that God forced him to sin, just as he forced you to sin, and forced your children to sin as well, eh?

No to all the above! Sin entered Adam from the outside but when it did it took up the mastery on the inside and it is this kind of human nature he passed down to his posterity with indwelling sin!

Adam chose to sin willfully against the light of truth (1 Tim. 2:12).


Anger
Num 11:1
And [when] the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard [it]; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed [them that were] in the uttermost parts of the camp.

Wrath
Exd 32:9
And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it [is] a stiffnecked people:
10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

I never spoke about JUSITIFIED anger or wrath! BTW the term "selfishness" and "Stubborness" cannot be applied to God. God is not "selfish" because "selfishness" has a negative connotation that implies UNJUST preeminence while God by His very nature JUSTLY deserves preeminence.

Nor can Immutability be defined as "stubborness" as immutability has to do with the PERMENANCE of divine attributes rather than tempormental definance! We are discussiong temporance as defiance against what is right not persistance in what is right.


Answer me this - was Adam's eyes opened when he lusted or after he bit into the fruit?

Opened to what is the correct question! He knew he sinned when he determined to willfully eat the fruit but the action brought the intent to completion. What his eyes were opened to was the KNOWLEDGE of sin by EXPERIENCE of conscience that condemned what he did!

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons

Lust leads to sin, and sin, when it is finished, leads to death. Lust doesn't result in death. Lust results in sin, and sin results in death.

This was not Adam but Eve and the nature of the sin was not the same (1 Tim. 2:12). Adam's desire that led to his sin was not deception based upon the physical attributes of the fruit or Satan's deceptive description of its potential spiritual attributes.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The Bible is very clear who is to blame for lust and sin. It did NOT come from God.

Never said it did come from God! That is your pure imagination at work! Always from the beginning of this discussion have used this text and denied it came from God. Finally, you wake up! Good!



Is the sin nature required for a person to sin?

Not in a prefallen Adam! But we are not products of a Pre-fallen Adam are we because "by one man's offence many were made......" As Jesus said it is the heart that is the source of all sin and such sin is "bound up IN THE HEART of a child" from birth!

Did Adam have a sin nature when he sinned?

That is the point! Adam without a sin nature was the most qualified human being to be tested as the representative of all his poserterity which were in his own loins when he acted in behalf for "by one man's offence many became......." and therefore "IN Adam all men die."

Post-fallen man sin because they are sinners by nature and in infants it is clearly seen by omission of the image of God and by coming short of the glory of God in all they do as they grow more capable of self-expression.




You should learn the distinction between a sin and a motive that leads to sin.

You should learn the difference between sin as a willful act and sin as a wrong intent behind all actions:

1. The intent of the heart is included in such commands to love the Lord thy God with ALL thine heart, soul, mind, etc.

2. The intent of the heart is included and defined by such passages as that deal with purpose for why and what you do:

1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

This is precisely why men are sinners by nature and not just by actions because the intent of their hearts comes under the definition of sin. This is why infants are born with a sinful nature because they do not do anything for the glory of God, and thus come short of the glory of God in everything they do.

This is precisely why Jesus says sin originates from the heart (Mt. 15) not the actions.

This is why Jesus said "there IS NONE good but one and that is God."

This is why Job said,

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. 5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;......Job 15: What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

This is why David said,

Psa. 58:2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.



Thanks, I will. I'll call it "original death" since the scripture plainly and clearly indicates death was passed, not sin.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

What you fail to understand is sin separates and Adam died spiritually at the precise point he sinned and thus the act of disobedience by Adam is inseparable from death and therefore we read:

"by one man's offence many BE DEAD"

"by one man's offence many WERE MADE SINNERS"

Do you see that "DEAD" and SINNERS" are equally what is passed down becuase they are inseparable.


Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

No father on earth but ONE acted in behalf of others! So this use of Ezekiel 18 is completely out of context and has no applicaton whatsoever.

"by ONE MAN's offence MANY WERE MADE SINNERS" is a repudiation of your misapplication of Ezek. 18:20! You cannot place "the father" in Ezek. 18:20 as the "one man" in Romans 5:15,19 and so why are you trying? You are simply pitting scripture against scripture by jerking Ezek 18:20 out of context!



Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

He fathered them in the Garden of Eden "by one man's offence MANY WERE MADE SINNERS". This is why David said concerning new born infants:

Psa. 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
 
Convicted1, you are thinking! God gave us power or reason for something other than to repeat Augustinian dogmas.:thumbs:

Thank you kind Brother. There are two aspects of man, the fleshly man, and the soul/spiritual man. One comes from the ground(fleshly man) and will die "in Adam" because of Adam's sin. The soul dies when it sins willingly and God put them under condemnation, in need of being reconciled back to Him.


BTW, Brother Bob(banned on here) thought highly of you, if I remember correctly. On June 10th, 2007, he, my dad, and a deacon baptized me.
 
Note carefully DHK's post. Are we just supposed to believe him because he says something is true? Where is his proof, Scriptural or via reason that what he says is true? He sounds so humanistic to me, just regurgitating manmade unsupported 'man'ufactured dogmatic positions.:thumbsup:
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
All of these attributes are concerning our fleshly bodies, and I agree with everything you posted. But what sin does a baby(new born as well) willfully commit that causes condemnation of their soul?
Go back to the OT story of David praying for his child. He mourned and wept, praying to God that the life of the infant might be spared. God did not answer David's prayer, and the child died. David got up and washed himself, put on his royal apparel, and acted as if nothing had happened. His servants, astonished at his actions, asked him about them. He explained: while the child was still alive perchance God would change his mind and save the child, so I interceded. But when the child died, what more could I do? (my paraphrase). [now the most important part]

He shall not come to me, I shall go to him.

Though the child was born with a sin nature, David was sure that he would see his child in paradise. He had no doubt. He fell on the mercy of God.
--Abraham said: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

When it comes to infants, we leave them to God's mercy, not to our theology. "The secret things belong unto the Lord." We don't try to "figure everything out."
 
Psa. 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.


This is one pet verse that the DoGs use that makes me chuckle.

What lies do a new born babe commit.

"I really want to say 'goo goo', but I'm gonna say 'ga ga', 'glubbbbbly', pfhhthhhhahhshhhshhs'."
 
Convicted1, I certainly thought highly of Brother Bob! We did not see eye to eye on everything, but we certainly agreed on what salvation entails and the Christian walk. If we get that straight, we do well! I certainly hope all is well with him. Give him my best regards if he is still with us!

Time will right all wrongs my friend!
 
Go back to the OT story of David praying for his child. He mourned and wept, praying to God that the life of the infant might be spared. God did not answer David's prayer, and the child died. David got up and washed himself, put on his royal apparel, and acted as if nothing had happened. His servants, astonished at his actions, asked him about them. He explained: while the child was still alive perchance God would change his mind and save the child, so I interceded. But when the child died, what more could I do? (my paraphrase). [now the most important part]

He shall not come to me, I shall go to him.

Though the child was born with a sin nature, David was sure that he would see his child in paradise. He had no doubt. He fell on the mercy of God.
--Abraham said: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

When it comes to infants, we leave them to God's mercy, not to our theology. "The secret things belong unto the Lord." We don't try to "figure everything out."

I agree with this, believe it or not. That baby's flesh died because he was born "in Adam". The fleshly death is unexcapable because of Adam. The eternal death is excapable by Grace through faith.
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
But what sin does a baby(new born as well) willfully commit that causes condemnation of their soul?

May I suggest that in regard to infants who come to an age where they can rationally comprehend the moral difference between right and wrong that they are judged "according to their works" in regard to eternal condemnation of their soul.

May I suggest that in regard to dying infants or those mentally handicapped who never come to comprehension of moral differnces between right and wrong that they are saved by Christ just as they were condemned by Adam without personal individual choice and so what was gained by Christ was more than what was lost by Adam.
 
Oh yes. Psalms 58. Now for the truth as to the real context of that passage as opposed to a proof text used for completly diferent purposes by Biblicist.

If one would take the time to read this short Psalm in it’s entirety, one would come to the plain truth that this Psalm was NOT written in any way to support some notion of original sin or inherited depravity, not only because of the context but the fact that the Jews did not hold to inherited depravity in the least. Neither does it call all liars from the womb. There was no place in their theology for any such notion. Original sin was simply foreign to them.

The context of the Psalm clearly indicates two groups of individuals being addressed. From verse 3-9 David addresses the wicked and speaks clearly to their final destruction. David cries out to God to let “every one of them pass away that they may not see the sun.” He proclaims that God is going to destroy ‘all’ of them and wash His feet in their blood. Is DHK holding to the belief that God is going to wash His feet in the blood of innocent babies, millions of which are the product of the abortionist’s knife? God help us!

Starting with verse 10-11, David shifts his focus from the wicked and onto the righteous. He states, “10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

One thing is clear. David is not trying to establish a dogma of original sin in this text in the least, but rather is simply contrasting the wicked with the righteous. He in NO way insinuates or states that the righteous are as the wicked, neither in birth nor in life.

In simple terms, David was just expressing in poetic terms that the wicked appeared to be wicked from the earliest light of moral agency, and that as soon as they were able to understand and communicate, even from a very early age, they appeared to him to be engaging in wickedness. Nothing in this passage establishes any such idea as original sin, or that all babies come forth from the womb lying as Biblicist, trying to get a proof text to walk on all four legs in support of original sin and wicked babies, wrongfully assumes.
 
Convicted1, I certainly thought highly of Brother Bob! We did not see eye to eye on everything, but we certainly agreed on what salvation entails and the Christian walk. If we get that straight, we do well! I certainly hope all is well with him. Give him my best regards if he is still with us!

Time will right all wrongs my friend!

He is still alive and well. The churches I go to and where he goes to do not work together(I left that association and went to another ORB assoc. that doesn't have correspondence with it). But he is a dear Brother in Christ.
 

Jerry Shugart

New Member
Though the child was born with a sin nature, David was sure that he would see his child in paradise. He had no doubt. He fell on the mercy of God.
--Abraham said: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
Why in the world would David think that the child was born with a sin nature since he himself knew that he was "wonderfully made"?:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).
 
May I suggest that in regard to infants who come to an age where they can rationally comprehend the moral difference between right and wrong that they are judged "according to their works" in regard to eternal condemnation of their soul.


So then, babies aren't born sinners from birth? I am talking in reference to the soul, that is. The soul dies when God accounts/imputes sin unto the soul, and is placed under condemnation.

May I suggest that in regard to dying infants or those mentally handicapped who never come to comprehension of moral differnces between right and wrong that they are saved by Christ just as they were condemned by Adam without personal individual choice and so what was gained by Christ was more than what was lost by Adam.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: These words are "music" to my eyes. LOL
 
Biblicist: May I suggest that in regard to dying infants or those mentally handicapped who never come to comprehension of moral differnces between right and wrong that they are saved by Christ just as they were condemned by Adam without personal individual choice and so what was gained by Christ was more than what was lost by Adam.


HP: You cannot be serious Biblicist. So here we have a completely manufactured philosophical notion, without the least support Biblically or otherwise, to fix the problem these supporters of original sin know exists in their theory. Common sense tells them they need an explanation for the obvious wickedness that would incur if God condemned infants as sinners.

Abandon the false notion of original sin my friends, and you will not have to manufacture philosophical (or humanistic, as DHK likes to use) fixes such as Biblicist has illustrated for all to plainly see. :thumbsup:
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Why in the world would David think that the child was born with a sin nature since he himself knew that he was "wonderfully made"?:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).
David speaks of the body in Psalm 139. Read the context. He is not speaking of soul or spirit, but of the body. His body is fearfully and wonderfully made. I answered this already. How many times in a day does your heart beat? in a year? in a lifetime? Do you have to think about it to make it beat? What if you did? What if you had to voluntarily had to think about making each heart beat just like you do with each keystroke on your computer? How long would you live? We are fearfully and wonderfully made.
--And my soul (mind) knows right well. The word soul here is used in the sense of the mind. He knows these things. He also knows he is born with a sin nature, something you apparently don't know.
 
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