The Covenant of Redemption

[Dave G]

Of course! That is, after that the Holy Ghost has begun convicting them.

Does the Holy Spirit work on everyone?
Please see Romans 8:29-30.

Only the foreknown are "called", George.

None of his own initiative seeks after God, but when God initiates the process, some do seek him then, hence:

I agree.

Isa_45:19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

God does not speak in secret.
But the problem is, who has "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15, John 8:43-47 )?
Was Israel, as a nation, composed of both unregenerate and regenerate people, or were they all "dead" in their trespasses and sins, George?

" God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. " ( Romans 11:2-5 ).

Then as now, God reserves a people to Himself.
He regenerates them and they then seek Him.

Gentlemen, that is what I see when I read the Scriptures.
If you don't see it, you don't see it.

I must tend to my duties in my yard, so I wish both of you well.
Perhaps later I will come back to this thread.

Have a good rest of the afternoon.

 

[Barry Johnson]

How can anyone dispose themseves to eternal life, when there is none that seeks God ( Romans 3:10-18 )?
When men love darkness rather than light, and will not come to the light ( John 3:19-20 )?

Search the Scriptures, Barry.
For therein is the answer.

Here are some for reference:

Acts of the Apostles 16:14.
John 3:3.

The Gosepl IS the power of God unto salvation . The Holy Spirt IS convicting the WORLD of sin , righteousness and Judgment ...ect

 

[George Antonios]

You know, it's a miracle the Lord by the scriptures slowly weaned me off of Calvinism. What a hold it has on the mind!
I'm not here in the great hope of changing anyone's mind - men, including myself, are by and large too proud for that - but to sharpen my sword. And the more clearly I see how how Calvinism is an external philosophical mold into which the verses are conformed to fit, the more it saddens me. It's circular reasoning. You dislodge a brother from one passage, so he jumps to the next. You dislodge him from there, he returns to the first.

 

[George Antonios]

I must tend to my duties in my yard, so I wish both of you well.
Perhaps later I will come back to this thread.

I know how that is. Especially with hedgehogs. Enjoy the work.

 

[Barry Johnson]

You know, it's a miracle the Lord by the scriptures slowly weaned me off of Calvinism. What a hold it has on the mind!
I'm not here in the great hope of changing anyone's mind - men, including myself, are by and large too proud for that - but to sharpen my sword. And the more clearly I see how how Calvinism is an external philosophical mold into which the verses are conformed to fit, the more it saddens me. It's circular reasoning. You dislodge a brother from one passage, so he jumps to the next. You dislodge him from there, he returns to the first.

Amen . This happened to me also . I'm slowly coming away from the baggage I've picked up along the way .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Amen . This happened to me also . I'm slowly coming away from the baggage I've picked up along the way .

You know, it's a miracle the Lord by the scriptures slowly weaned me off of Calvinism. What a hold it has on the mind!
I'm not here in the great hope of changing anyone's mind - men, including myself, are by and large too proud for that - but to sharpen my sword. And the more clearly I see how how Calvinism is an external philosophical mold into which the verses are conformed to fit, the more it saddens me. It's circular reasoning. You dislodge a brother from one passage, so he jumps to the next. You dislodge him from there, he returns to the first.

Its because there is no rightly dividing in Calvernism. Its a system that hangs on the T

 

[George Antonios]

Its because there is no rightly dividing in Calvernism. Its a system that hangs on the T

Indeed.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Indeed.

I think I was taken captive for a while because it was seemingly answering all the questions. But I believe this happens before you get established in the scriptures.

 

[George Antonios]

I think I was taken captive for a while because it was seemingly answering all the questions. But I believe this happens before you get established in the scriptures.

Yes. For me, it was the fear that my pastor instilled in me that if I said that I of my own free-will had believed in Christ, then I was being proud and saying that somehow I had saved myself. I didn't want to be proud, so I espoused Calvinism.
That's why I say that Calvinism is often built on a false sense of humility.
Our Calvinist brethren, they are quick to tell you, are very humble people.

 

[George Antonios]

I think I was taken captive for a while because it was seemingly answering all the questions. But I believe this happens before you get established in the scriptures.

Yes. For me, it was the fear that my pastor instilled in me that if I said that I of my own free-will had believed in Christ, then I was being proud and saying that somehow I had saved myself. I didn't want to be proud, so I espoused Calvinism.
That's why I say that Calvinism is often built on a false sense of humility.
Our Calvinist brethren, they are quick to tell you, are very humble people.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yes. For me, it was the fear that my pastor instilled in me that if I said that I of my own free-will had believed in Christ, then I was being proud and saying that somehow I had saved myself. I didn't want to be proud, so I espoused Calvinism.
That's why I say that Calvinism is often built on a false sense of humility.
Our Calvinist brethren, they are quick to tell you, are very humble people.

Yeah I totally get that. Its fear all around . ' pelagian ' " universalism " ect .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yes. For me, it was the fear that my pastor instilled in me that if I said that I of my own free-will had believed in Christ, then I was being proud and saying that somehow I had saved myself. I didn't want to be proud, so I espoused Calvinism.
That's why I say that Calvinism is often built on a false sense of humility.
Our Calvinist brethren, they are quick to tell you, are very humble people.

One of the red flags for me was studying the P in Tulip . I realised that its actually a trap into a works based thinking . On the surface it looks pious and right . It usually goes for the low hanging fruit of the wacky side of christemdom . Like word of faith and prosperity Gospel and by contrast calvernism seems like the good Godly sensible and well educated sanctuary to embrace .

 

[Reformed]

One of the red flags for me was studying the P in Tulip . I realised that its actually a trap into a works based thinking . On the surface it looks pious and right . It usually goes for the low hanging fruit of the wacky side of christemdom . Like word of faith and prosperity Gospel and by contrast calvernism seems like the good Godly sensible and well educated sanctuary to embrace .

Barry, will help enlighten all of us who are into the wacky side of Christianity with your detailed biblical exegesis on this topic? I am sure that will help persuade us as to the error or our ways. Thank you in advance.

 

[Iconoclast]

You know, it's a miracle the Lord by the scriptures slowly weaned me off of Calvinism. What a hold it has on the mind!
I'm not here in the great hope of changing anyone's mind - men, including myself, are by and large too proud for that - but to sharpen my sword. And the more clearly I see how how Calvinism is an external philosophical mold into which the verses are conformed to fit, the more it saddens me. It's circular reasoning. You dislodge a brother from one passage, so he jumps to the next. You dislodge him from there, he returns to the first.

I have not met a so-called former Calvinist that understood the position.

 

[George Antonios]

I have not met a so-called former Calvinist that understood the position.

Of course, of course.

 

[Dave G]

You know, it's a miracle the Lord by the scriptures slowly weaned me off of Calvinism. What a hold it has on the mind!

I'm not sure why you feel the way that you do, but I can say with all honesty that I've never taken my understanding of God's word from any man, George.

I also don't see "Calvinism" having a hold on my mind like "Traditionalism" did...
For example, to this day I still sometimes slip and use the term, "get saved", when the Biblical term is "called", or "believed on Christ / came to Christ".

That's why I say that Calvinism is often built on a false sense of humility.
Our Calvinist brethren, they are quick to tell you, are very humble people.

I've seen or heard of many traditional "Calvinists" that are not very humble at all.
In fact, some of them are quite proud and condescending towards others...

But I've only rarely seen posts that I would term "prideful" from most of the ones on this board.
For the most part, they seem quite aware of what election means...
God's grace with respect to the giving of eternal life through no effort of their own.

I've also seen many "Traditionalists" and "Wesleyans" / "Molinists" that are proud people, and they will very quickly accuse people like me of being proud...
When that couldn't be further from the truth.
Some of them are right here on this board.

But I think that the proudest "Wesleyan" I ever met was in a YouTube comment section.
When he realized what I believed, he completely threw out the Lord's commands regarding Christian conduct and began to rail on me like no one I had ever seen before.

I think the word "proud" was the tamest of the words he used.

 

[Dave G]

Yes. For me, it was the fear that my pastor instilled in me that if I said that I of my own free-will had believed in Christ, then I was being proud and saying that somehow I had saved myself. I didn't want to be proud, so I espoused Calvinism.

I had a much different experience.

I was raised an Independent Baptist and was taught "Traditionalism / Provisionism" from the age of 12, not "Calvinism".
I didn't have a pastor to tell me the things I now hold to, neither did the subject of election ever come up...
Not once in over 25 years, despite the words "elect" and "election" being in the Bible in more than a dozen places.

But after I began to see election for myself in the Bible, one of my former pastors and I sat down and read through Romans 9 twice.
When I saw in his eyes that he and I were not "clicking" on it ( and he advised me to "keep reading Dave, keep reading" ), then I knew it was time to go.
The reality of it is, I'm what some would call, "self-taught".
I simply study the Bible as the Lord tells me to ( 1 Peter 2:2, 2 Timothy 2:15 ), and He clears things up for me.

While it has taken quite a while for Him to get me where I am today, I've rarely felt the desire to ask someone what they think a passage means;
But when I do, I usually set aside their explanation of it, and then wait for the Lord to clear it up for me instead during the course of my quiet time with Him each day.



Back to Acts of the Apostles 13:48:
The very first time I read it, at 37 years old, I knew what "ordained to eternal life" meant without having to be told by anyone...
It means what it says.

Those that believed among the Gentiles that day when Paul and Barnabas preached, did so because they were appointed by God to the gift of eternal life.
"Ordained" ( commissioned, set forth, appointed, etc ), not "disposed".

The reason I know that it is translated correctly ( at least in the AV ), is because it agrees perfectly with many other passages;
One of which is John 17:2, while the other is 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[Dave G]

One of the red flags for me was studying the P in Tulip . I realised that its actually a trap into a works based thinking .

Strange...
I don't see anywhere that this summary is anything less than biblical:

Perseverance of the Saints

"All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end."
- Source: Calvinism and Arminianism comparison

I'm not sure what you see when reading this, but I see several details that have absolutely nothing to do with our works, not even remotely:

1) Chosen by God.
2) Redeemed by Christ.
3) Given faith by the Spirit.
4) Kept in their faith by the power of Almighty God.
5) Because of these, they persevere to the end in their faith.

Why?
Because it's all of God and none of man.

But I do know of many who tend to confuse the term "persevere" with something similar in "Wesleyan" theology, in that someone must persevere in their walk and in their faith, or risk losing their salvation.
As I see it, this "Perseverance" could not be any farther from that.


That said, it seems I've wandered quite a bit.

This thread is about the "Covenant of Redemption", which I tend not to place in the realm of definite covenants...
But if someone were to press me on it, I would say that yes, there is an agreement between the Son and the Father concerning His bride, the elect.

The Father determined that He would send the Son before the world began, and Jesus Christ was manifest in these last times for them ( 1 Peter 1:20 );
The Son then agreed to do the will of the Father ( John 6:38 ) by going to the cross and dying for them ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11, Isaiah 53:8 ).

 

[Iconoclast]

Amen . This happened to me also . I'm slowly coming away from the baggage I've picked up along the way .

Neither one of you understand the position. No one who knew the teaching would post the caricatures and errors you post.

 

[AustinC]

You know, it's a miracle the Lord by the scriptures slowly weaned me off of Calvinism. What a hold it has on the mind!
I'm not here in the great hope of changing anyone's mind - men, including myself, are by and large too proud for that - but to sharpen my sword. And the more clearly I see how how Calvinism is an external philosophical mold into which the verses are conformed to fit, the more it saddens me. It's circular reasoning. You dislodge a brother from one passage, so he jumps to the next. You dislodge him from there, he returns to the first.

Huh, that's exactly why I left free-will synergism. Arguing based on one sentence rather than the whole word of God and thus creating a theology of "one liners" that are confused and inconsistent.
I kept reading God's word and seeing the whole, which establishes a monergist position in which the Sovereign King reigns.