The Cross Saves!

Do you believe that George Bush is the current President of the United States of America? How much work did you do to come to that belief? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't know if that's such a good example, Yelsew. I had to work really hard to believe someone like Clinton could be elected president, and I'm not so sure I believe it even now.

 

Believing takes no work on the part of the believer. Whether historical or personal, belief is truly effortless for the one who believes. Therefore believing is not a work that man can do. But it is required for man's salvation.

 

Do you believe that George Bush is the current President of the United States of America? How much work did you do to come to that belief? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't know if that's such a good example, Yelsew. I had to work really hard to believe someone like Clinton could be elected president, and I'm not so sure I believe it even now. </font>[/QUOTE]No you didn't have to work hard to believe, you had to work hard to overcome the surprise, disappointment, and possibly the anger your belief caused.

 

Do you believe that George Bush is the current President of the United States of America? How much work did you do to come to that belief? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't know if that's such a good example, Yelsew. I had to work really hard to believe someone like Clinton could be elected president, and I'm not so sure I believe it even now. </font>[/QUOTE]No you didn't have to work hard to believe, you had to work hard to overcome the surprise, disappointment, and possibly the anger your belief caused. </font>[/QUOTE]Good point Yelsew!

Calvinist try to make faith into a "work of the Law" so they can somehow say the Arminians believe in Salvation by works, thus attempting to discredit us.

But they fail to recognize that the scripture never views faith as a work of the law. In fact, Paul clearly places them as opposites of each other in Romans 3:27: "Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from ovserving the law...Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law."

As you can see, Paul did not see faith as a work of the Law, but just the opposite. Faith does not give man the right to "boast" as this passage shows. Calvinist attempts to link faith to "the works of the Law" and Arminians "boasting" is a man made attempt to undermine a viable system of belief. Ignore their vain attempts, they are fruitless.

With Respect,
Bill

 

First let me say that if I can "DO" something that prevents God from saving me, and God can only save me "IF" I believe, it seems to me that I am the final work of salvation.

Second, how do you all explain this verse (Calvinist and Arminians) John 2:23-25 "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, observing His signs which He was doing. But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He himself knew what was in man."

The word Believe and entrusting is the same word in the greek by the way. Pistaeo (sp?) it means to believe or put faith in.

sturgman

 

romanbear

Thank you.

 

Sturgman,
Why do you insist that believing is a work?

If you think that because of the scripture that says, "the Father's work is believing". Then you should consider that the Father's purpose for mankind is that mankind believe in His son and thus in Him. So how does he bring about his purpose if not by making belief possible and providing the incentives for man to come to belief. Thus the work of the Father is belief.


John 2:23-25

The definition of the term pretty well explains the meaning as used in subject scripture. Paraphrase: "The people believed in Him, even his name, but he did not have faith (he didn't trust them) in the people because he knew them." The people were "new converts" who could easily revert.

God can save whether or not man is willing!
Is there anything God cannot do?

Does God save the unwilling? Granted there may be an exception or two, but what do scriptures say is the norm?

The situation as I see it is that God desires that man come to him of man's own free will. Kind of like joining an all volunteer army. Otherwise it is not a matter of love and life, but rather a matter of God forcing servitude on his subjects. I do not see the latter image in scripture, do you?

 

Whoops. I guess you're going to have to amend that Arminian rule that "God would never violate man's free will" to "God would never violate man's free will unless there's an indisputable scriptural example of it, in which case Arminians must call it an exception".

 

yelsew, you butchered the text here. Try again. It says that the people put their faith in Christ, but God did not entrust himself to them. Don't change what it says and then jump to a conclusion based upon your errors.

 

Believing takes no work on the part of the believer. Whether historical or personal, belief is truly effortless for the one who believes. Therefore believing is not a work that man can do. But it is required for man's salvation.

The scripture says not the work of God is believing, the question is not if God believes. The answer as to whether believing is working or not, is whether this is something that emminates from the will of man; or the Will of God. To answer this question rightly you must realize one is in every sense of the word, "FREE" while the other is in every sense of the word "BOUND"

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Jesus said,

Jesus tells us why he came to dwell among us, and that is to complete the work of the father. Then he tells us what the work of the Father is,

As in the desert where God gave the Israelites manna so that they could eat of their own free will, God likewise gave us his son so that we can believe of our own free will. Just as God worked to feed, God worked so that we believe. Therefore the Work of God is that we believe in the one whom he sent!

Then Jesus also said,

Jesus provided the completion of God's work by declaring "it is finished" 2000 years ago. What more are you expecting Him to do?

He did it all so that we may believe!

Do you still say that "the scripture says not the work of God is believing?"

[ February 18, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

Yes, because:

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him who he hath sent." John 6.29

It does not say The work of God is believing, but that the work of God is that ye believe. This believing is the work of God, not of man.

I stand on this.

It's like when you found you had your ticket to ride the train, did you cross the threshold on your own power, or did the Holy Spirit carry you across, now, I believe the Holy Spirit carried you across, then, once aboard you found your will has been liberated from sinfulness, but even then, the seat you sit in and the car you will ride is Sovereignly chosen by God.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

It's a firm foundation.

 

Give me just one example of something that God must believe!

 

Go back and look and you will find, though it says originally posted by frogman, this is your statement.

</font>[/QUOTE]I did not say God must believe, you are taking my argument.

You said:

You used the above "translation" which appears to be teaching men they are able to carry out the work of God, which is that ye believe

Yet you continue to adhere to the idea that your system does not embrace works, while you use words such as "require" etc. If the work of God is that ye believe, the work cannot be carried by man, because it is His Work. If your (or my own belief) is not coupled with the power of God that through the goodness of God we are led to repentance, we shall not repent, we shall not believe, except that God works belief in our heart. This is the reason salvation is a heart work, this is why it is called circumcision of the heart, and is said to be done without hands.

All this is the work of God; at best man is passive and unconcerned until moved to a Godly sorrow and granted repentance.

Repentance as you know is a change of mind, but I change my mind daily and so do you, this does not equal to that which is Biblical repentance toward God. Which necessitates Godly sorrow for our sins, and not worldly sorrow, because a worldly sorrow only is sorrow we are "caught" in sin. Still, it seeks a self-righteousness and self-justification which is not salvation.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Yelsew, you still don't get it...

Let me spell it out for you, because you are doing everything but answer the question. What does John 2 mean when it says that they put their faith (Pisteao) in Christ, but Christ did not entrust (pisteao) himself to them.

I don't know how much clearer I can ask that.

 

Sturgman,

I'm curious to how you would answer the arguments in my post titled: CALVINISM'S TEACHING OF TOTAL INABILITY IS UNFOUNDED IN SCRIPTURE

Your one of the few guys on this post I respect as being objective when dealing with the scripture and I really want to know what you think. I honestly have not heard a Calvinistic response to this argument.

Thanks for you time,
Bill

 

Since you did not read my post when I answered this question, here it is again. Please take time to read it and you will, I am confident, find the correct answer therein.

Sturgman,
Why do you insist that believing is a work?

If you think that because of the scripture that says, "the Father's work is believing". Then you should consider that the Father's purpose for mankind is that mankind believe in His son and thus in Him. So how does he bring about his purpose if not by making belief possible and providing the incentives for man to come to belief. Thus the work of the Father is belief.


John 2:23-25

The definition of the term pretty well explains the meaning as used in subject scripture. Paraphrase: "The people believed in Him, even his name, but he did not have faith (he didn't trust them) in the people because he knew them." The people were "new converts" who could easily revert.

God can save whether or not man is willing!
Is there anything God cannot do?

Does God save the unwilling? Granted there may be an exception or two, but what do scriptures say is the norm?

The situation as I see it is that God desires that man come to him of man's own free will. Kind of like joining an all volunteer army. Otherwise it is not a matter of love and life, but rather a matter of God forcing servitude on his subjects. I do not see the latter image in scripture, do you? </font>[/QUOTE]Since you demand more...let's see, how many words in the english language have multiple meanings for the same spelling? Let's try just one: Ball
1. a generally round spherical object used for play, and sports competition, introduced to mankind in infancy and applicable to all ages.
2. A spherical object that when made of firm spongy material is often used in physical therapy of injured persons for the purpose of rehabilitation.
3. A specialized social event having food, music, and dancing as key features.
4. A connecting device for mechanical connections such as a ball type trailer hitch or a ball joint.
5. A wish from one to another inviting a "good time" e.g. "have a ball"

Here's one in another language: Pisteuo

1. To have faith in, upon, or with respect to , a person or thing.
2. To trust someone or something.
3. To entrust your own wellbeing to someone else.

In the subject scripture, The people placed their faith in Jesus, but Jesus did not entrust his wellbeing to the people. This scripture by the way is not the only example of Jesus not entrusting his wellbeing to the people, but may be the only example of this particular word.

 

By this explanation, you can't escape the idea that belief is the work of God. The Bible does not say the Father's work is believing (BTW, this is where I found where you attributed belief to God), The scripture does not say, as you do that God's purpose is for man to believe, but that His work is belief.

There is a difference, for His purpose to be that men believe says that man is capable of thwarting the purpose of God, for the work of belief to be the work of God is to say that man can only believe as it is given to him from God, which is the scriptural foundation (you know, line upon line, precept upon precept?).

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

You must read John 6:29 in context:

The Jews have just asked Jesus, "What must we do to do the works of God's requiring?" (most literal in Greek)

Jesus answer is a repeating their question in a way saying, " The work of God's [requiring] is this: To believe in the one he has sent."

Even Calvinistic scholars admit that the Greek text is not trying to attribute the "belief" as a "work of God" but simply as the "requirement" or "means" for salvation.

Most scholarly Calvinists admit that "faith" or "belief" is man's response, because they see that is undeniably taught in the scripture. For example John MacArthur writes in his Commentary on Eph.

Faith is man's response to God's elective purpose. God's choice of men is election; men's choice of God is faith. In election God gives His promises, and by faith men receive them.

Like I said even Calvinistic authors, including Calvin himself, did not try to turn faith into some kind of a work of God inside man. Calvinists, who know their bible, teach that faith is a response of man, they go on to err in that they teach God only gives faith to the elect.

That concept is not supported in scripture, lost are seen throughout scripture displaying forms of faith, which God's common grace has given to all man in creation.

The only characteristic that sets saving faith apart from dead faith is the fruit it produces. This is determined by where the faith resides. In other words, who, by faith, do you respond to? Darwin, Budda, or the Christ?

With Respect,
Bill