Thanks. Question is open. Do you deny that Sunday is the third day?
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The crucifixion-resurrection timeline: A third view
- Thread starter Calminian
- Start date
Thanks. Question is open. Do you deny that Sunday is the third day?
Three days and three nights, or evenings and mornings.
Crucified on Wednesday. Put in the grave as the sabbath was approaching. He was cut off in the midst of a literal week as well as a prophetic week.
Thursday was the passover sabbath. The women rested on that day. 1st night and day
Friday The women went and bought spices and prepared them.
Saturday, Sabbath The women rested, as the sabbath was ending, they made their way to the tomb, as the first day was approaching.
First day, Sunday Jesus was already risen.
Why didn't the ladies take the spices on Friday? I don't know but the scripture sats they didn't. I don't know how much work was entailed in buying the spices or in preparing them.
This fits in the timescale, On the third day, In three days, Three days and three nights, and After three days.
Three days and three nights, or evenings and mornings.
Crucified on Wednesday. Put in the grave as the sabbath was approaching. He was cut off in the midst of a literal week as well as a prophetic week.
Thursday was the passover sabbath. The women rested on that day. 1st night and day
Friday The women went and bought spices and prepared them.
Saturday, Sabbath The women rested, as the sabbath was ending, they made their way to the tomb, as the first day was approaching.
First day, Sunday Jesus was already risen.
This evaded the simple question I asked. Very simple, yes or no. Is Sunday the third day?
Yes, but Scripture does not say they were free all day Friday and chose to rest. The Wednesday theory says this, but Scripture does not. Nor does Scripture say they rest 2 separate sabbaths, plus the Friday in-between (which is incredibly bizarre and doesn't fit the narrative).
On the other hand, Scripture clearly implies the women looked for the earliest opportunity to embalm the body, leaving in the twilight of the morning on Sunday. That only works with a Friday crucifixion.
Scripture also calls Sunday is the third day which you apparently deny (or refuse to affirm).
These seem like fatal daggers for the Wednesday theory.
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Like 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. <What day was being spoken of and about what time of that day was being spoken of? What sabbath was being spoken of?
Matt 28:1 YLT And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,
What day what time.A few helpful hints. The word, day, is not in the Greek of Matt 28:1
Also The same Greek word is used for, drew on and at the dawn.
Okay, but I noticed you're citing one Bible version that is different from every other one available. Virtually all say "Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn,...."
Surely there's there's a better argument.
Also, I've asked several times this same question. Is Sunday the third day? Why won't any Wednesdayers touch this question with a ten foot pole?
I've also asked for a simple explanation as to why the women rested for 2 sabbaths and the Friday in between, 4 days, before anointing the body. They had all day Friday, in the Wednesday scenario. No takers on this one either.
And of course there's the main subject of the thread. What did Jesus mean by heart of the earth? Can anyone offer a good argument for it meaning the grave of Sheol?
heart of the earth , kardia ge is heart earth but it does not mean shell, but
1Pe 3:18
¶
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison
1Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
This is perhaps includes the physical dead who were righteous.
1Pe 3:18
¶
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison
1Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
This is perhaps includes the physical dead who were righteous.
I don't doubt this occurred while he was in the grave, just doubt the phrase "heart of the earth" has these activities in mind.
Under the earth is definitely a reference to burial, but heart of the earth, if literal, would likely speak of a surface geographical area in the middles of some land. Heart of the earth in modern vernacular would speak of the middle our country--heartland. Metaphorically, it would likely point to the ruling power of a particular land.
There's also the belly of the whale analogy. Belly of the beast is a common expression today, which also doesn't not mean the grave. It rather points to a dire situation where dangerous people were in charge and hold the power to cause harm. This would fit well with the incarceration and judgement of Jesus by earthly authorities. In a very real sense he entered the belly of the beast when he was taken into custody at Gethsemane and gave himself over to the ruling authorities.
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blacksheep
Member
I can't imagine that 1 Peter 4:5-6 being figurative. It has all the grammatical and contextual signs of being literal, and other scriptures support a literal interpretation. Since Peter and Paul wrote about it, Peter must have heard it from the resurrected Christ, and Paul likely from Peter or other apostles.
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Eph. 4:7-10
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
I'm sure there are reasons for the gospel being preached to the dead which could imply that some of the dead didn't accept the gospel Christ preached while in hades/paradise. I believe there was a resurrection when Christ resurrected because some of the graves were opened. My view on this is that the graves didn't need to be opened but were to prove the resurrection of the dead to others. Not only were they resurrected and judged, Eph. 4 suggest they received a reward.
Mathew 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
He preached to those who were righteous but had not heard of Him like those in Hebrews 11. Like He did two the disciples after the resurrection
Nor can I. Never made that claim. The task is linking and limiting the phrase heart of the earth, to the grave or Sheol. My contention is that heart of the earth is much broader, encompassing all the events of the Passion, from the incarceration Thursday night to the resurrection Sunday morning (which happens to be 3 days and 3 nights).
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Luke 23:46 and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit.
What does that verse mean?
What was the state of Jesus, after this was accomplished?
I assume the spirit of him, at that moment, went to the Father.
How had the spirit of him, that was no longer with him, benefited, him?
Lev 17:11 In bold. literally What man became in Genesis 2:7 soul, living
NKJV
‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’
Darby
for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.
The spirit had returned to the Father.
The flesh was still hanging on the cross, dead.
At that very moment, what was the state of the soul and where was the soul?
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isa 53:12
Same Hebrew word translated life in NKJV for Lev 17:11.
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Sheol); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
What does that verse mean?
What was the state of Jesus, after this was accomplished?
I assume the spirit of him, at that moment, went to the Father.
How had the spirit of him, that was no longer with him, benefited, him?
Lev 17:11 In bold. literally What man became in Genesis 2:7 soul, living
NKJV
‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’
Darby
for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.
The spirit had returned to the Father.
The flesh was still hanging on the cross, dead.
At that very moment, what was the state of the soul and where was the soul?
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isa 53:12
Same Hebrew word translated life in NKJV for Lev 17:11.
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Sheol); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
What question do you feel this post answers? The question I'm posing is simple. Does the phrase heart of the earth refer to the grave or something broader like Jesus' taken into custody and judged?
It's a very simple question and challenge. Somehow you need to show the link. No one is questioning Jesus descended, and all that. That's not the issue.
I believe when he dismissed his spirit into the hands of the Father, the soul of him entered Hades for three days and three nights. Hades being the heart of the earth and or the lowest parts of the earth. At death the soul of him, descended to the lowest parts of the earth, Hades, the heart of the earth.
His body of flesh, subject to corruption, did not see corruption, and was raised no more to return to corruption.
I believe he died late Wednesday and three days and three nights later he was raised from the dead, seventy two hours later, late on Saturday.
Okay, but what I'm asking is, what is the connection between this event and the phrase heart of the earth? IOWs why do you believe this? Is there a connection drawn from this phrase. How do you know Jesus was speaking of this when he used this phrase?
Also, I'll ask you a question I've not been able to get any Wednesdayers and answer. Is Sunday the third day? Very simple yes or no question. So far no takers.
No it is the fourth day.
A.T. Robertson, a renowned Greek New Testament scholar,
Now the third day (τριτην ταυτην ημεραν αγει — tritēn tautēn hēmeran agei). A difficult idiom for the English. “One is keeping this a third day.” And he is still dead and we are still without hope.
ἄγω G71 Strong's III to pass a day, keep or celebrate a feast, etc.
TR τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει σήμερον ἀφ᾽ οὗ ταῦταἐγένετο = third this day, leading from (or, off) today from, which these occurred
In other words. The third day he said he would rise has passed, today.
Finally, an answer!!! Props.
Now, you quoted Robertson. I'll quote Cleopas who was walking with Jesus on Sunday afternoon.
Luke 24:1 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.
Later that day, Cleopas and others are walking with Jesus unaware and explaining to him what happened.
Luke 24:20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning.
Very clearly "it is the third day since all this took place." What day? "the first day of the week" the same day the woman went to the tomb earlier that morning.
Can you give me any reason not to believe this testimony?
From: The Bible in Basic English
S. H. Hooke
21 But we were hoping that he would be the Saviour of Israel. In addition to all this he has now let three days go by from the time when these things took place;
The third day had gone by the previous evening.
It refers back to verse 7 where the angel is quoting Jesus, "The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again."
Those three days were completed, passed by, when today began.
James Moffatt implies the same thing.
Hmmm. So only this one translation captures the true meaning....
But even this version says "now", which means today, the very day they were talking. To make your case, he would have had to say "yesterday" he has let three days go by. But he uses the word "now."
In fact, look at Young's literal translation on this passage.
Luke 24:21 and we were hoping that he it is who is about to redeem Israel, and also with all these things, this third day is passing to-day, since these things happened.
Also look at Mounce's interlinear. "Indeed besides all this, but it is now the third day since these things happened." That's about as clear as it can be stated.
Are you really willing to say all other translations, including Mounce's Interlinear, are wrong?