The Crux of Keeping the Sabbath Day Contention

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The problem here is that scripture in the N.T. does validate the church practices of collection on Sunday and even the disciples breaking of bread on that day too.

It was on the sabbath day was when the disciples were out to the Jewish synagogues in reaching out to the Jews in the book of Acts. That was the prime time for outward ministry to the Jews. They were not worshiping on the sabbath morning in those Jewish synagogues.

Just try holding a christian service in a Jewish synagogue today and you would get kicked out, brother. So in no way were the disciples holding christian services in those Jewish synagogues.

They were reaching out to the Jews subtlety by way of reading the scripture that ties in with the Good News in Christ.

An example of this can be seen by how a non-christian Jew named Apollos was reading the scripture in those Jewish synagogues until Aquila & Priscilla expounded to him the word of God more perfectly and then Apollos became a believer in Jesus Christ to be received by the disciples.

Acts 18: 24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

The scripture also explains why the fourth commandment is not included in the New Covenant as the Old Covenant vanishes away.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

So how did the fourth commandment vanished away with the Old Covenant under the New Covenant?

Matthew 12:1-8 has Jesus giving two examples of why O.T. saints that had profaned the sabbath day were blameless because of them being in the temple.

Remember how in the O.T. under the Old Covenant, God's presence was in the Temple? That was why the O.T. saints were blameless because they were in God's Presence in that Temple.

And Jesus said one greater than the temple was in that place where He and the Pharisees were at, meaning Jesus Christ Himself.

His disciples were guiltless because Jesus was with them on that sabbath day. Jesus Christ being God and with His disciples on that sabbath day was why His disciples were guiltless that sabbath day.

Just as you are guiltless for profaning the sabbath day because Jesus Christ is in you and thus with you always.

Therefore the sabbath day is not longer "lord" over you. Jesus is.

Agge no, shuck, this is the flip-side of the legalism golden Pound, the nickel half. They do it better here in South Africa. When you buy a Mandela golden Rand, they've mixed the whole thing with 20% copper. But you buy it for the gold in weight.

Dear Hark, when someone buys in on the Gospel of Jesus Christ, he buys pure sold gold. That is why the Gospel is called "the Gospel-OF-JESUS CHRIST because it is the Power-OF -GOD to save".
The same with "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath-OF-THE-LORD-GOD", yes, the Sabbath of the Lord YOUR God because it pertains "ALL THE WORKS-OF-GOD".

But what have we here? Nothing but the works of man. Good or bad works, makes no difference ---ALL the works and intentions and thoughts of man are like worn out filthy rags he puts on for his cloak of righteousness.

Why are the works of God of and on the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD : never : never : NEVER seen as much as indirectly referred to in anti-Sabbath rhetoric and holiness verbosity?!

Alright, not always. Sometimes God in Christ's presence through his Sabbath Day are found referred to, as in this, quoting, Hark, "~His disciples were guiltless because Jesus was with them on that sabbath day~".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Watch this . . .

The problem here is that scripture in the N.T. does validate the church practices of collection on Sunday and even the disciples breaking of bread on that day too.

'Kata mian sabbatou' said Hark, "~defers from~" what? "Defers from the context before 1Corinthians 16. But, is the contention, it does not "~defer from~" the Sabbath-sermon by inference preached on the Sabbath in that context ... chapter 15. When he thinks, it suits him, Hark admits reality; when not, he just don't say nothin.

How does Hark try to establish "~the church practices of collection on Sunday~"?
By going directly contrary every detail as well as greater syntactical and even historical circumstance and status quo ---factors and aspects which Calvin saw, admitted and dealt with, but are simply waved by pro-Sunday and libertine anti-Sabbatharians.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Remember how in the O.T. under the Old Covenant, God's presence was in the Temple? That was why the O.T. saints were blameless because they were in God's Presence in that Temple.

I wonder how much of God's Presence was in that temple . . .


I think the only representation of God’s Presence in that temple on that occasion, must be seen in the presence of David.


Here was a corrupt temple official just like those in Jesus’ presence in Herod’s temple. Saul bribed him to hide the cloak and sword (of victory / righteousness) which he had stolen from David behind the veil before the most holy place. [It was unlawful to bring weapons into the temple!] That priest violated the Law of David’s temple by having entered into the most holy place more than once a year. He violated just about all the Laws of David concerning the temple as well as all the Laws of God concerning priesthood and common morals.

BUT this viper hypocrite had the audacity to reprimand the king and lawgiver it doesn’t behove him to eat of the shewbread. Which was another lie of the devil, because David asked for the expired shewbread loaves; not for the fresh ones he exchanged them with.


God had all the right to strike that scoundrel dead on the spot. But the presence of David the king of Israel and figure of the King of kings to come, Jesus Christ, saved his life.


Remember all this happened on the Sabbath. Does that mean this messianic episode annulled the Sabbath? For David was not blamed and punished for this anyhow like God had judged him for his other sins. No. The whole episode just illustrated its future anti-type when it happened in the life of the Messiah and his disciples.


If anything withstood the onslaughts of all the unholy hypocrites of religion and state, it was “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD” ---Lord of his disciples.

It was not only the disciple who on that Sabbath “~were blameless because they were in God's Presence in that Temple.~” God in Christ hallowed and blessed and “made the Sabbath”, perfect and ~blameless~ because it was brought into and visited by God's Presence IN JESUS CHRIST in that Temple on that Sabbath Day.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Just try holding a christian service in a Jewish synagogue today and you would get kicked out, brother. So in no way were the disciples holding christian services in those Jewish synagogues. … They were reaching out to the Jews subtlety by way of reading the scripture that ties in with the Good News in Christ.

Re: “~Just try holding a christian service in a Jewish synagogue today and you would get kicked out, brother. So in no way were the disciples holding christian services in those Jewish synagogues.~”


Pure arbitrariness.

The apostles (by now) held nothing but “~christian services in those Jewish synagogues.~” If they had not, they had disobeyed their apostolic commission and dishonoured their Commander.


Re: “~in no way were the disciples holding christian services in those Jewish synagogues. … They were reaching out to the Jews subtlety by way of reading the scripture that ties in with the Good News in Christ.~”


Pure contradiction.

“~christian services~” aren’t “~reaching out~”; “~christian services~” aren’t “~scripture that ties in with the Good News in Christ~”?

Man o man . . .

 

[Hark]

Agge no, shuck, this is the flip-side of the legalism golden Pound, the nickel half. They do it better here in South Africa. When you buy a Mandela golden Rand, they've mixed the whole thing with 20% copper. But you buy it for the gold in weight.

Dear Hark, when someone buys in on the Gospel of Jesus Christ, he buys pure sold gold. That is why the Gospel is called "the Gospel-OF-JESUS CHRIST because it is the Power-OF -GOD to save".
The same with "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath-OF-THE-LORD-GOD", yes, the Sabbath of the Lord YOUR God because it pertains "ALL THE WORKS-OF-GOD".

But what have we here? Nothing but the works of man. Good or bad works, makes no difference ---ALL the works and intentions and thoughts of man are like worn out filthy rags he puts on for his cloak of righteousness.

Why are the works of God of and on the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD : never : never : NEVER seen as much as indirectly referred to in anti-Sabbath rhetoric and holiness verbosity?!

Have you ever considered that in the O.T. under the Old Covenant, Jews were striving to keep the law to BE His people?

But because of Jesus Christ in us, He achieved what we could never achieve by the deeds of the law under the Old Covenant, because we ARE His people, having His seal whereby we can call God Father.

Alright, not always. Sometimes God in Christ's presence through his Sabbath Day are found referred to, as in this, quoting, Hark, "~His disciples were guiltless because Jesus was with them on that sabbath day~".

Just as you and I are guiltless, because Jesus Christ is in us and with us always, brother.

 

[Hark]

Watch this . . .

'Kata mian sabbatou' said Hark, "~defers from~" what? "Defers from the context before 1Corinthians 16. But, is the contention, it does not "~defer from~" the Sabbath-sermon by inference preached on the Sabbath in that context ... chapter 15. When he thinks, it suits him, Hark admits reality; when not, he just don't say nothin.

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK25.htm#S2596

'Kata "after, against, beyond, aside" mia first sabbatou sabbath ' is the same thing as saying upon the first day of the week as deferring from the sabbath day.

How does Hark try to establish "~the church practices of collection on Sunday~"?

That is how.

By going directly contrary every detail as well as greater syntactical and even historical circumstance and status quo ---factors and aspects which Calvin saw, admitted and dealt with, but are simply waved by pro-Sunday and libertine anti-Sabbatharians.

"After the sabbath" is the same thing as saying "upon the first day of the week" which is Sunday in according to the calender week.

 

[Hark]

I wonder how much of God's Presence was in that temple . . .

I think the only representation of God’s Presence in that temple on that occasion, must be seen in the presence of David.

Here was a corrupt temple official just like those in Jesus’ presence in Herod’s temple. Saul bribed him to hide the cloak and sword (of victory / righteousness) which he had stolen from David behind the veil before the most holy place. [It was unlawful to bring weapons into the temple!] That priest violated the Law of David’s temple by having entered into the most holy place more than once a year. He violated just about all the Laws of David concerning the temple as well as all the Laws of God concerning priesthood and common morals.

BUT this viper hypocrite had the audacity to reprimand the king and lawgiver it doesn’t behove him to eat of the shewbread. Which was another lie of the devil, because David asked for the expired shewbread loaves; not for the fresh ones he exchanged them with.

God had all the right to strike that scoundrel dead on the spot. But the presence of David the king of Israel and figure of the King of kings to come, Jesus Christ, saved his life.

Remember all this happened on the Sabbath. Does that mean this messianic episode annulled the Sabbath? For David was not blamed and punished for this anyhow like God had judged him for his other sins. No. The whole episode just illustrated its future anti-type when it happened in the life of the Messiah and his disciples.

If anything withstood the onslaughts of all the unholy hypocrites of religion and state, it was “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD” ---Lord of his disciples.

It was not only the disciple who on that Sabbath “~were blameless because they were in God's Presence in that Temple.~” God in Christ hallowed and blessed and “made the Sabbath”, perfect and ~blameless~ because it was brought into and visited by God's Presence IN JESUS CHRIST in that Temple on that Sabbath Day.

That's really deep thinking there in regards to David, Gerhard.

That doesn't explain why the priests were blameless. I can imagine that you may say that the priests were symbolic of Jesus being our high priests, and so are blameless, but...

Why were His disciples guiltless when they are not a king nor a priest?

 

[Hark]

Re: “~Just try holding a christian service in a Jewish synagogue today and you would get kicked out, brother. So in no way were the disciples holding christian services in those Jewish synagogues.~”

Pure arbitrariness.

The apostles (by now) held nothing but “~christian services in those Jewish synagogues.~” If they had not, they had disobeyed their apostolic commission and dishonoured their Commander.

Have you ever heard of a christian sabbath day keepers service held in a Jewish synagogue today? I haven't. If this was regularly practiced in God's fearing churches in the N.T., then where is it today?

Are you going to a Jewish synagogue on the sabbath day?

See why I am having a hard time believing that point of view?

Re: “~in no way were the disciples holding christian services in those Jewish synagogues. … They were reaching out to the Jews subtlety by way of reading the scripture that ties in with the Good News in Christ.~”

Pure contradiction.

“~christian services~” aren’t “~reaching out~”; “~christian services~” aren’t “~scripture that ties in with the Good News in Christ~”?

Man o man . . .

Back in those days, Jews take turn reading the scripture in the Jewish synagogue. That was how and when His disciples apply the scripture in the O.T. that testified of Jesus Christ to witness of Him in there.

The Jew Apollos was doing the reading of the scripture in the synagogue before Aquila & Priscilla introduce Christ to him to believe in Him where afterwards, His disciples received Apollos because of his knowledge of the scripture after seeing it more perfectly in regards to Jesus Christ.

Acts 18:4 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: 28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Do you find that informative on how they did missionary work in Jewish synagogues?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"After the sabbath" is the same thing as saying "upon the first day of the week" which is Sunday in according to the calender week.

It is not. Where do you read from? Not from 1Corinthians!

Mark 16:1a has no bearing on 1Corinthians 16:2 or v.v..

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Have you ever heard of a christian sabbath day keepers service held in a Jewish synagogue today? I haven't. If this was regularly practiced in God's fearing churches in the N.T., then where is it today?

Are you going to a Jewish synagogue on the sabbath day?

See why I am having a hard time believing that point of view?

I am having a hard time believing no point at all insisted upon for being a point of view.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Back in those days, Jews take turn reading the scripture in the Jewish synagogue. That was how and when His disciples apply the scripture in the O.T. that testified of Jesus Christ to witness of Him in there.

The Jew Apollos was doing the reading of the scripture in the synagogue before Aquila & Priscilla introduce Christ to him to believe in Him where afterwards, His disciples received Apollos because of his knowledge of the scripture after seeing it more perfectly in regards to Jesus Christ.

Acts 18:4 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: 28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Do you find that informative on how they did missionary work in Jewish synagogues?

And what say you is "mightily (to) convince (anyone especially Jews), and that publicly, shewing by the Scriptures that Jesus is Christ."?! It is proclaiming the Gospel which all the mystics and spirits filled of the ages put together had no idea of.

 

[Hark]

It is not. Where do you read from? Not from 1Corinthians!

Mark 16:1a has no bearing on 1Corinthians 16:2 or v.v..

Look up the many definitions of kata from your source, and see if "after" is not one of those definitions, please.

 

[Hark]

And what say you is "mightily (to) convinced (anyone), and that publicly, shewing by the Scriptures that Jesus is Christ."?! It is proclaiming the Gospel which all the mystics and spirited of the ages put together had no idea of.

Apollos started out as a Jew well taught in scripture and teaching in synagogues.

Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue:

That was before Aquila & Priscilla had shown him how the scripture testify of Jesus Christ more perfectly which he had believed through grace.

Acts 18:26.....whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

And now, Apollos being a believer, was teaching scripture about Jesus Christ.

28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

 

[Hark]

I am having a hard time believing no point at all insisted upon for being a point of view.

That is why you and I are to confirm everything individually with Jesus Christ. He is your Good Shepherd. Trust Him to guide you and confirm the truth in His words to you not your teachers nor me.

Each of us has to lean on Him alone for the truth in His words.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart....14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession......16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.....26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

That's really deep thinking there in regards to David, Gerhard.

That doesn't explain why the priests were blameless. I can imagine that you may say that the priests were symbolic of Jesus being our high priests, and so are blameless, but...

Why were His disciples guiltless when they are not a king nor a priest?

The case of David and Ahimelech was everything but what the priests' temple duty implied or was supposed to be. Ahimelech was not blameless because of David's presence, just like the pharisees and Sadducees in no way were justified or blameless because of Jesus' presence in the temple. On the contrary Jesus' presence meant their condemnation, not their justification.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

That is why you and I are to confirm everything individually with Jesus Christ. He is your Good Shepherd. Trust Him to guide you and confirm the truth in His words to you not your teachers nor me.

Each of us has to lean on Him alone for the truth in His words.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart....14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession......16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.....26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

. . . and everything is the truth, except “the Lord’s Day” and “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD” and Jesus Christ “Lord of the Sabbath” . . . .

 

[Hark]

The case of David and Ahimelech was everything but what the priests' temple duty implied or was supposed to be. Ahimelech was not blameless because of David's presence,

It was the temple was why they were blameless. That was why Jesus said that in this place one greater than the temple was here, thus testifying that it was because the O.T. saints were in the temple where God's Presence was is how they were blameless.

just like the pharisees and Sadducees in no way were justified or blameless because of Jesus' presence in the temple. On the contrary Jesus' presence meant their condemnation, not their justification.

Jesus wasn't talking about who were guilty, but whom were guiltless, because the Pharisees were seeking to condemn His disciples for profaning the sabbath, and Jesus was saying that His disciples were guiltless.

 

[Hark]

. . . and everything is the truth, except “the Lord’s Day” and “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD” and Jesus Christ “Lord of the Sabbath” . . . .

Jesus is our sabbath now under the New Covenant which requires you to stop working in keeping the sabbath day to seek justification for yourself.

You are to rest in Jesus Christ now that you ARE His people without having necessity to keep the sabbath day which under the Old Covenant was required in order to " be " His people.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Jesus is our sabbath now under the New Covenant which requires you to stop working in keeping the sabbath day to seek justification for yourself.

You are to rest in Jesus Christ now that you ARE His people without having necessity to keep the sabbath day which under the Old Covenant was required in order to " be " His people.

The New Commandments as per Hark's New Legalism. ~Requires~ me nothing; and I ~am to~, nothing, with or without nothing from you or anybody in the world : Colossians 2:16a.

OK?!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It was the temple was why they were blameless. That was why Jesus said that in this place one greater than the temple was here, thus testifying that it was because the O.T. saints were in the temple where God's Presence was is how they were blameless.



Jesus wasn't talking about who were guilty, but whom were guiltless, because the Pharisees were seeking to condemn His disciples for profaning the sabbath, and Jesus was saying that His disciples were guiltless.

So?