The D Chart: Part III--on doing theology with AI

[Ben1445]

I neither agreed or disagreed with the use of AI, but only pointed out it wasn’t asked to give definitions of theological beliefs.

Rather, a history of failed predictions by those that hold those beliefs.

If you know of failed end times predictions of those that hold to covenant theology, I would certainly read it with interest.

BTW and FTR, I don’t trust any AI when it comes to religious beliefs. The algorithms were written by godless, Christ hating liberals, imo.

Peace to you

To be fair, nobody who wants a working lightbulb goes to the store and asks for Edison’s examples of failed lightbulbs.
If you search for errors and ask for errors, you should expect no less.
An honest evaluation of dispensation would throw out the “failed predictions” and move on.
There are plenty of “theologians” who say that God’s word is not trustworthy, it was written by men and no one should believe it. If AI echoes that sentiment, you would not follow it.
Why do it with other Bible studies?

It is just starting out in the wrong direction. It certainly is a good thing that all people don’t judge religion by the cults.

 

[John of Japan]

No, I’m making the argument modern dispensationalism theology was non existent in the early church and contrary to early church theology.

Peace to you

Sorry, I don't count early church theology as our model. They got a lot wrong. They didn't even take a stand on the deity of Christ until Arius happened along in the 4th century and they had to have the Council of Nicea in AD 325.

But what they did get right was premillennialism for the first three centuries with few exceptions. But then you didn't say what early church doctrines you were referencing.

But at least they did not use AI!

 

[canadyjd]

To be fair, nobody who wants a working lightbulb goes to the store and asks for Edison’s examples of failed lightbulbs.
If you search for errors and ask for errors, you should expect no less.
An honest evaluation of dispensation would throw out the “failed predictions” and move on.
There are plenty of “theologians” who say that God’s word is not trustworthy, it was written by men and no one should believe it. If AI echoes that sentiment, you would not follow it.
Why do it with other Bible studies?

It is just starting out in the wrong direction. It certainly is a good thing that all people don’t judge religion by the cults.

Fair enough. Well stated

An honest and civil discussion will acknowledge the arguments of others and address their interpretation of scripture that leads to those beliefs…

…. Without suggesting if you don’t agree you can’t be saved, or that you are deceived, or that you don’t believe God’s Word or any number of attacks that contribute nothing.

None of which I have ever seen you do, which is one reason I respect your opinions and posts.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Sorry, I don't count early church theology as our model. They got a lot wrong. They didn't even take a stand on the deity of Christ until Arius happened along in the 4th century and they had to have the Council of Nicea in AD 325.

But what they did get right was premillennialism for the first three centuries with few exceptions. But then you didn't say what early church doctrines you were referencing.

But at least they did not use AI!

Please explain what premillennialism means as it relates to dispensationalism.

I think one of the biggest issues I have with dispensationalism is the amount of speculation envolved.

Example: I believe you stated Matthew 24+ was speaking of the 2nd coming, but not the rapture. Do you believe that because Christ states this occurs after the Great Tribulation?

So, in dispensationalism, there is a pre-tribulation rapture. And yet, in Matthew 24 +, which you see as the second coming, the saints are collected from the ends of the earth.

Where did these saints come from, if all the saints were raptured prior to the great tribulation? Well, they were saved afterwards, right?

But if all the saints were raptured prior, who preached the gospel if no believers are left on the earth?

I find it much simpler to see Matthew 24+ as the 2nd coming and the rapture, followed by the great throne judgment.

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

Please explain what premillennialism means as it relates to dispensationalism.

It is intrinsic to dispensationalism. I may have time later to explain more. I have a class now.

I think one of the biggest issues I have with dispensationalism is the amount of speculation envolved.

Example: I believe you stated Matthew 24+ was speaking of the 2nd coming, but not the rapture. Do you believe that because Christ states this occurs after the Great Tribulation?

Very simply put, yes.

So, in dispensationalism, there is a pre-tribulation rapture. And yet, in Matthew 24 +, which you see as the second coming, the saints are collected from the ends of the earth.

Where did these saints come from, if all the saints were raptured prior to the great tribulation? Well, they were saved afterwards, right?

Certainly. Millions will be saved during the tribulation.

But if all the saints were raptured prior, who preached the gospel if no believers are left on the earth?

I find it much simpler to see Matthew 24+ as the 2nd coming and the rapture, followed by the great throne judgment.

Peace to you

There are five Gospel sources during the tribulation: the witness left by the raptured saints, the two witnesses, the 144,000, the angel with the "everlasting gospel", and the saints saved through these witnesses.

 

[JesusFan]

Sorry, I don't count early church theology as our model. They got a lot wrong. They didn't even take a stand on the deity of Christ until Arius happened along in the 4th century and they had to have the Council of Nicea in AD 325.

But what they did get right was premillennialism for the first three centuries with few exceptions. But then you didn't say what early church doctrines you were referencing.

But at least they did not use AI!

wasn't the prevailing view regarding Eschatology appear to be though a form of historical premil?

 

[canadyjd]

…..

Certainly. Millions will be saved during the tribulation.

There are five Gospel sources during the tribulation: the witness left by the raptured saints, the two witnesses, the 144,000, the angel with the "everlasting gospel", and the saints saved through these witnesses.

Thanks. Aside from the “witnesses left by the rapture (scripture please), I see the literal interpretation of passages of Revelation.

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

…..e.

Thanks. Aside from the “witnesses left by the rapture (scripture please), I see the literal interpretation of passages of Revelation.

Peace to you

I don't have scripture for witnesses left by those going up on the rapture, but it seems obvious to me. Let's say you witness to a lost cousin many times before going up in the rapture. Why could he not remember your witness and trust Christ as Savior after the rapture?

Funny story. Many years ago I was in a home that had a box on the wall with a VHS videotape in it behind glass. There was a little hammer there and the instructions, "In case of Rapture, break glass!" I liked that! Sounds like a good witness to me!

 

[John of Japan]

wasn't the prevailing view regarding Eschatology appear to be though a form of historical premil?

That is correct. That is why we call it historical premillennialism.

 

[John of Japan]

Please explain what premillennialism means as it relates to dispensationalism

The tribulation period is the judgement for the rejection of Christ by mankind during the Church Age. The premillennial return of Christ then finishes the church age, and ushers in the 1000 year reign of Christ, which is the final dispensation (of the seven). Each dispensation shows the glory of God. The millennium does so by proving that even with a perfect rule of a perfect King on an earth rejuvenated earth (Is. 11), mankind cannot abandon sin, and once more rebels against God (Rev. 20:8-9), only to be destroyed.

I think one of the biggest issues I have with dispensationalism is the amount of speculation envolved.

I really don't know what speculation you refer to. The theology is based squarely on a literal interpretation of Scripture.

 

[canadyjd]

I don't have scripture for witnesses left by those going up on the rapture, but it seems obvious to me….

Thanks. This is what I mean by speculation.

Let me ask you to consider something I was taught in Seminary years ago.

John did not write in chronological order. He writes in repeating themes.

In Revelation 7, he mentions the 144000, and also the saints martyred during the great tribulation. This is very early. The details come later.

Do you see that?

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

The tribulation period is the judgement for the rejection of Christ by mankind during the Church Age.

The Great Tribulation is not a tribulation of mankind in general, it is the tribulation of Christians by those that reject Christ.

The Judgement for rejecting Christ is the great throne judgement.

The premillennial return of Christ then finishes the church age, and ushers in the 1000 year reign of Christ, which is the final dispensation (of the seven).

Thank you, that makes sense in that systematic theology.

…..The millennium does so by proving that even with a perfect rule of a perfect King on an earth rejuvenated earth (Is. 11), mankind cannot abandon sin, and once more rebels against God (Rev. 20:8-9), only to be destroyed.

Really? More proof is needed? Who needs that proof? Killing Jesus would cover that, imo.

Please provide scripture to support the purpose of the 1000 year earthly rule by Christ is to prove the corruption of mankind.

I really don't know what speculation you refer to. The theology is based squarely on a literal interpretation of Scripture.

I understand your position. But you don’t take all scripture as literal, do you?

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Funny story. Many years ago I was in a home that had a box on the wall with a VHS videotape in it behind glass. There was a little hammer there and the instructions, "In case of Rapture, break glass!" I liked that! Sounds like a good witness to me!

What was on the tape?

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

What was on the tape?

Peace to you

I don't know. Didn't dare break the glass before the rapture! But I assume it was a Gospel presentation of some kind.

 

[John of Japan]

The Great Tribulation is not a tribulation of mankind in general, it is the tribulation of Christians by those that reject Christ.

I never heard that idea before, and I've read a lot of books on prophecy. Please clarify. Do you have Scripture for it? I don't know how you get that from the Olivet Discourse and Revelation. The disasters in those books overtake lost people, not believers.

The Judgement for rejecting Christ is the great throne judgement.

True.

Thank you, that makes sense in that systematic theology.

Really? More proof is needed? Who needs that proof? Killing Jesus would cover that, imo.

You'll have to ask the Lord Himself about that one. But can God be glorified too much???

Please provide scripture to support the purpose of the 1000 year earthly rule by Christ is to prove the corruption of mankind.

In spite of a perfect King and a perfect government, Rev. 20 says, "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

That is human corruption with a vengeance.

I understand your position. But you don’t take all scripture as literal, do you?

Peace to you

I do unless there is clear symbolic meaning, such as what I taught in a Bible study yesterday: Metaphor, Simile, Metonymy, Synecdoche, Anthropomorphism, Personification, Apostrophe, Hyperbole, Irony, Allegory, Parable, Riddle, Fable, Type, and many others. (See the book by E. W. Bullinger: https://figuresofspeechinthebible.n...-Of-Speech-In-The-Bible-by-E-W-Bullinger1.pdf.)

If you interpret a passage symbolically/"spiritually"/allegorically that is not meant to be such (as per the figures of speech given), you are making yourself the authority, and not God. That is why the great Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about the 1000 years in Rev. 20, "In this book of symbols how long is a thousand years? All sorts of theories are proposed, none of which fully satisfy one" (Word Pictures in the NT). There is nothing that the 1000 years can represent symbolically if it is not a literal 1000 years. Sure, Revelation has a lot of symbolism, but it can all be classified as such. It is meant to be taken literally unless there is clear symbolism.

 

[JD731]

I do unless there is clear symbolic meaning, such as what I taught in a Bible study yesterday: Metaphor, Simile, Metonymy, Synecdoche, Anthropomorphism, Personification, Apostrophe, Hyperbole, Irony, Allegory, Parable, Riddle, Fable, Type, and many others. (See the book by E. W. Bullinger: https://figuresofspeechinthebible.n...-Of-Speech-In-The-Bible-by-E-W-Bullinger1.pdf.)

If you interpret a passage symbolically/"spiritually"/allegorically that is not meant to be such (as per the figures of speech given), you are making yourself the authority, and not God. That is why the great Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about the 1000 years in Rev. 20, "In this book of symbols how long is a thousand years? All sorts of theories are proposed, none of which fully satisfy one" (Word Pictures in the NT). There is nothing that the 1000 years can represent symbolically if it is not a literal 1000 years. Sure, Revelation has a lot of symbolism, but it can all be classified as such. It is meant to be taken literally unless there is clear symbolism.

This is true. First and foremost the Revelation is a prophecy starting with John on the isle of Patmos in the year he was given the Revelation.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; (if it had already come to pass it would be a history) and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

All the symbols and types given in the Revelation have already been established in the scriptures and explained in them somewhere else we would be guessing about many of them. In that sense they are literal too. For instance, the 1000 years is considered by God (not us) to be one day, the seventh day, the Sabbath of the Lord, the Day of the LORD, the "that day," the last day, and there is not many subjects more thoroughly discussed than this subject in the prophetic books of the Bible and there is no excuse for such ignorance as we see concerning it among people who say they believe God.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Here is n application where God's veiw and men's view of a day is applied for clarity in doctrine.

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

After 6 days is the 7th day which is equal to the day of the Lord in prophecy. A mountain in prophecy is a kingdom and the higher the mountain the greater the kingdom. It was on this day he took them to the high mountain where he was seen by them in their glory and there were saints from the past there as well. This is a snap shot of the kingdom of Christ and both applications of the day are displayed.

 

[canadyjd]

I never heard that idea before, and I've read a lot of books on prophecy. Please clarify. Do you have Scripture for it?

The persecution of Christians is a major theme throughout the gospels and epistles. The great apostasy (falling away) which Jesus spoke of is a falling away of professing believers because of persecution. They will betray others (fathers, sons, mothers, daughters) to avoid persecution.

Tribulation refers to the persecution of Christians, almost always in the NT. That is why, imo, a pre-tribulation rapture is contrary to the repeated warnings to Christians to expect persecution, to endure persecution, to persevere through persecution and not fall away. Those that endure to the end will be saved.

I wish you were correct. I do not want to go through the great tribulation, should I live that long. May God Holy Spirit strengthen me should it be so.

Should I be raptured prior, thank you Lord Jesus, I was mistaken.

Should all those expecting to be raptured prior to the great tribulation, find themselves in the midst of the great tribulation, I pray God strengthen them as well, and not lose heart.

There is nothing that the 1000 years can represent symbolically if it is not a literal 1000 years. Sure, Revelation has a lot of symbolism, but it can all be classified as such. It is meant to be taken literally unless there is clear symbolism.

I have no problem with the 1000 years of Revelation 20 being literal (though I believe it to be symbolic).

The context of the 1000 years of Revelation 20 is the reward for faithfulness those martyred during the great tribulation will receive. They will reign with Christ for 1000 years. Christ reigns from heaven.

Revelation 20 does not say Christ reigns on earth. It says Satan is released after 1000 years.

This is why I asked you to consider that John writes in repeating themes, not chronological order.

John is repeating an earlier theme of Satan wrecking havoc among mankind.

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

The persecution of Christians is a major theme throughout the gospels and epistles. The great apostasy (falling away) which Jesus spoke of is a falling away of professing believers because of persecution. They will betray others (fathers, sons, mothers, daughters) to avoid persecution.

Tribulation refers to the persecution of Christians, almost always in the NT. That is why, imo, a pre-tribulation rapture is contrary to the repeated warnings to Christians to expect persecution, to endure persecution, to persevere through persecution and not fall away. Those that endure to the end will be saved.

I wish you were correct. I do not want to go through the great tribulation, should I live that long. May God Holy Spirit strengthen me should it be so.

Should I be raptured prior, thank you Lord Jesus, I was mistaken.

Should all those expecting to be raptured prior to the great tribulation, find themselves in the midst of the great tribulation, I pray God strengthen them as well, and not lose heart.


I have no problem with the 1000 years of Revelation 20 being literal (though I believe it to be symbolic).

The context of the 1000 years of Revelation 20 is the reward for faithfulness those martyred during the great tribulation will receive. They will reign with Christ for 1000 years. Christ reigns from heaven.

Revelation 20 does not say Christ reigns on earth. It says Satan is released after 1000 years.

This is why I asked you to consider that John writes in repeating themes, not chronological order.

John is repeating an earlier theme of Satan wrecking havoc among mankind.

Peace to you

Let me show you from Scripture how I know the Lord will reign on earth as King. It doesn't take much for me to believe it when I take in all the minor prophets have said.

The prophet Zechariah said in 14:2-3,

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

This is the Second Coming of Christ when He destroys the armies of the world led by the anti-Christ.

Vs. 4

"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

The Lord Jesus Christ is now on earth, He is standing on the Mt. of Olives that overlooks Jerusalem, having saved Israel from a sure destruction.

Vs. 9-11

"And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited."

The Lord is now the King of the promised Kingdom on earth.

Vs. 16-17

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

God is now demanding that all the Gentile nations come to Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Tabernacles, and worship the King, the Lord Jesus Christ. Never before in history has the Gentile been made a part of keeping the Hebrew Feasts.

 

[canadyjd]

I’ll have to study Zachariah again before I respond

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

I never heard that idea before, and I've read a lot of books on prophecy. Please clarify. Do you have Scripture for it?….

You stated this in response to my statement that “tribulation” refers to Christians in particular and not mankind in general.

I consider you to be quite the scholar. You are obviously well studied, and knowledgeable of scripture and the biblical languages if you will forgive me for the flattery.

One of the very first things I noticed when I became a Christian and began reading the Bible seriously was the many references to the expectation of persecution throughout the NT. It seemed very plain to me the “Great Tribulation” which Jesus spoke of was a tribulation, a persecution, of Christians, just prior to His 2nd coming. Persecution is a constant theme throughout the gospels and epistles, so much so that a pre trib rapture is contrary to all the predictions of persecution, imo.

The persecution will separate the false brethren from Christians. Those making false professions will not abide persecution, as Jesus said in His parable of the seeds.

It is the time of the great apostasy, the falling away, of many. As Jesus said, those that persevere to the end will be saved.

In Revelation we see several references to the faithful being martyred, of the saints crying out “how long” must we wait, and reward for steadfastness in the midst of the persecution.

I am, frankly, stunned that you have never even heard of that.

I hope you will explore those that hold to these beliefs, if for no other reason than to gain knowledge of what they believe and the scripture they use to support those beliefs.

Peace to you