The D Chart: Part III--on doing theology with AI

[John of Japan]

The persecution of Christians is a major theme throughout the gospels and epistles. The great apostasy (falling away) which Jesus spoke of is a falling away of professing believers because of persecution. They will betray others (fathers, sons, mothers, daughters) to avoid persecution.

Tribulation refers to the persecution of Christians, almost always in the NT. That is why, imo, a pre-tribulation rapture is contrary to the repeated warnings to Christians to expect persecution, to endure persecution, to persevere through persecution and not fall away. Those that endure to the end will be saved.

It is an exegetical fallacy to say that a word always means the same thing in the NT. (A famous example is "leaven" which usually, but not always, has a negative meaning. Cf Matt. 13:33, etc.) In this case you say "almost always," but that cannot be carried through to mean "always." Here are examples when tribulation does not refer to Christians: Matt. 13:31 (arguable), Rom. 2:9, 2 Thess. 1:6, Rev. 2:22. With this many examples, I fail to see how you can ipso facto decide that the Great Tribulation is on Christians. Each usage of the word must be exegeted in context.

I wish you were correct. I do not want to go through the great tribulation, should I live that long. May God Holy Spirit strengthen me should it be so.

Should I be raptured prior, thank you Lord Jesus, I was mistaken.

Should all those expecting to be raptured prior to the great tribulation, find themselves in the midst of the great tribulation, I pray God strengthen them as well, and not lose heart.

My main objection to the post-trib view is that it has the bride of Christ going through the tribulation. That totally negates the metaphor, which even John the Baptist referred to (John 3:29). On our honeymoon, I made my wife push our car so I could pop the clutch since she didn't know how, and she's never let me forget it. But that was unintentional. Why would the Bridegroom, Christ, make the church go through "Great Tribulation"?

I have no problem with the 1000 years of Revelation 20 being literal (though I believe it to be symbolic).

The context of the 1000 years of Revelation 20 is the reward for faithfulness those martyred during the great tribulation will receive. They will reign with Christ for 1000 years.

This is confusing. I can't figure out from this it you believe the 1000 years is literal or not. If it is not literal, than pray tell what does it mean symbolically?

Christ reigns from heaven.

So then, do you believe that God abrogates the Davidic Covenant, a sacred promise that David's descendant would reign on his throne on earth? (David never reigned in Heaven.)

Revelation 20 does not say Christ reigns on earth. It says Satan is released after 1000 years.

No, it is the Davidic Covenant that says Christ will reign on earth. Rev. 20 simply gives the time frame.

This is why I asked you to consider that John writes in repeating themes, not chronological order.

John is repeating an earlier theme of Satan wrecking havoc among mankind.

Peace to you

I assume you mean John's repeating themes are in Revelation. I'm not sure how one proves that Rev. is not chronological in light of the divine outline of 1:19.

 

[John of Japan]

You stated this in response to my statement that “tribulation” refers to Christians in particular and not mankind in general.

I consider you to be quite the scholar. You are obviously well studied, and knowledgeable of scripture and the biblical languages if you will forgive me for the flattery.

Kind words. Thank you.

One of the very first things I noticed when I became a Christian and began reading the Bible seriously was the many references to the expectation of persecution throughout the NT. It seemed very plain to me the “Great Tribulation” which Jesus spoke of was a tribulation, a persecution, of Christians, just prior to His 2nd coming. Persecution is a constant theme throughout the gospels and epistles, so much so that a pre trib rapture is contrary to all the predictions of persecution, imo.

Here's my problem with that. The book of Rev. has so many terrible things happening to unbelievers, not believers.

The persecution will separate the false brethren from Christians. Those making false professions will not abide persecution, as Jesus said in His parable of the seeds.

It is the time of the great apostasy, the falling away, of many. As Jesus said, those that persevere to the end will be saved.

In Revelation we see several references to the faithful being martyred, of the saints crying out “how long” must we wait, and reward for steadfastness in the midst of the persecution.

I am, frankly, stunned that you have never even heard of that.

Can you give me a source in eschatological writings for that? Some scholar who teaches it? Or is it basically your own idea? (Which in and of itself does not make it mistaken.)

To reiterate, what I had never heard of was, "The Great Tribulation is not a tribulation of mankind in general, it is the tribulation of Christians by those that reject Christ." I am familiar with all else you've discussed. So, again, a source other than yourself for that position? (Preferably not an Internet source unless it is from an actual scholar, since there is a ton of uneducated garbage on line, present company excepted!)

I hope you will explore those that hold to these beliefs, if for no other reason than to gain knowledge of what they believe and the scripture they use to support those beliefs.

Peace to you

I am currently taking a doctoral course in Preaching from Prophetic Literature, so yes, I do explore sources that disagree with me.

 

[Salty]

I am currently taking a doctoral course in Preaching from Prophetic Literature, so yes, I do explore sources that disagree with me.

Do you plan on changing your user name to Dr. John?

 

[JD731]

Speaking of the rapture of the church of Jesus Christ I would like to weigh in.

None of the Jewish Christian epistles and not even the gospels deals with the New testament church of Jesus Christ. It was not revealed in the OT times nor to any of the Jewish writers but to the apostle Paul. When Peter, for instance, mentions the coming of Jesus Christ his mind is firmly established on his promise to return to the earth and to establish his kingdom as he had learned all his life from his Jewish teachers. He was still wondering about the kingdom the day Jesus ascended to heaven in Acts 1;

Ac 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

For all the ministry of Jesus Christ, both he and they, had preached to Israel only the gospel of the kingdom. They said it was at hand and because it is plainly stated in Titus chapter one that it is impossible for God to lie we just believe what he says even when we do not understand it. The kingdom only had to be received by the nation and if you only read Matthew, which is the gospel account with the emphasis on the kingdom, you will see that a transition was made in Mt 12 when the national rulers officially rejected him as Messiah and plotted to put him to death. There were only two things these men during those days were required to believe. Number 1, they were required to believe that Jesus was the Messiah of Israel and number two that God was his Father. They must believe he is the son of God.

Mt 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

There is nothing in the NT more sure than the fact that the disciples of Jesus never had a thought that he would die and rise again from the dead, The gospel of the kingdom that Jesus preached and that they were commissioned to preach was not about his dying for the sins of Israel and the world. It was the good news, the glad tidings that the kingdom of God was at hand and the King was in their midst.

It is not likely that any of the disciples of Jesus ever understood much about the church during their life and ministry. We have Peter saying this when he wrote his letters.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

He said this because Paul was writing about something new. He was writing about the gentile church, Peter and the other apostles knew little about it. Paul had been chosen of God to have the revelation of the church given to him. These doctrines cannot be learned by human study because they had been hidden "in God" and the scriptures asks the question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" The church is shrouded in a series of mysteries that cannot be known by anyone, even us today , without having the Spirit reveal them to us. This is clearly taught to us in 1 Cor 2 and other places in the Bible. This is the answer as to why we have so many systems of theology and people have such various ideas of what the scriptures actually teaches. God would have us all "speak the same things," 1 Cor 1:10.

The transition of Matthew 12 was the end of the gospel of the kingdom being at hand because of the unbelief of these Jewish teachers of the law. They committed the unpardonable sin and it was these teachers that God would no longer save. They are responsible for millions of Jews going to hell. Had they embraced Jesus Christ history would have been written much differently. Before you recoil at this eventuality let me say that God views corporate Israel as his firstborn son. In other words, the nation will be saved just like an individual Israelite, by believing in Jesus Christ, that he is the Messiah, the son of God. These rulers who had the hearts of the people in their hands refused to believe and led the nation to refuse to believe. As such the sentence of death was upon the son of God, Israel, and the plan of God that Jesus would die for the nation and rise again for their justification after which he would build his church during the next forty years from the believers of that generation, death being the penalty of their unbelief.

Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Israel, God's collective son nationally, must be saved as one before the prophecies of the kingdom can be fulfilled.

Ac 2:37 Now when they (Israel) heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The operative part of this is "every one of you."

Continued next post

 

[JD731]

Continued:

Now God was not going to save these Jews that ended this dispensation of law in rebellion and unbelief. This was crunch time and a time of moving on in the plan of God and they would not move. Their plan was to kill Jesus and to usurp his kingdom after the manner of Satan. So God reckoned them dead and time does not pass for dead things. When Jesus would have come back to rule and reign over his kingdom in AD 70 and fulfilled all the OT prophecies, both he and the Jews were out of their land and since there was no longer a national presence , they were considered by God as gentiles and they would be saved one at a time and incorporated into what now is a gentile church. There are no Jews in the church from that time on til now. It has been two thousand years

I hope the reader can understand that Hebrews is written to that generation of Jews who rejected Jesus Christ but who was given grace and a second chance and the 4 warnings throughout the epistle that doom is impending and their turning back to the law will result in judgement, and did.

Heb3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

God's house would have been full had those who were called would have come, but they didn't. So God called gentiles who would come and Jesus would build his house from all them who would come and he would blind the eyes of his people and they would come like gentiles if they would enter into his rest of salvation. However. God's covenant promise to Abraham was unconditioned on anything Abraham had to do. Therefore it was the promise of land and a nation and God will save this nation later after purging it of all it's impurities. He will run it through a furnace of fire 7 times like silver is purified till every impure citizen is gone. This of course will require this nation to be raised again from the dead and when it is finished the nation will be saved and both Israel and Jesus will be back in the land.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they (Israel) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall (their fall is to reject Jesus for salvation and depend on keeping the law, see Ro 10:1-3) salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness (the reader needs to answer this question)?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh (Israelites), and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead (the reader needs to agree this is true)?

Life from the dead is a resurrection. The nation is dead here in AD 58 when this epistle was written. If they do not heed the warnings to the Hebrews they will be buried in the nations in AD 70.

He has this to say about the house of Jesus we read about in Hebrews 3.

Still speaking to the gentiles since V 13.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel (every one of them that are left at that time, not just a remnant like here) shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (the second advent of Jesus Christ to the earth, Re 19):
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their (national) sins.

Now I have not yet got to Paul and the gentile church and the mysteries of God but I will in my next post.

Note on V 26
Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives and enter through the Eastern gate into Jerusalem before he goes out to fight the battle of Armageddon alone.