The Danger of Open Theism

[Allan]

My goodness - no wonder Southern Baptists are looked upon as liberal!

Only in your mind

 

[Hardsheller]

Only in your mind

So Allen, are you saying that a Southern Baptist Pastor who believes in Open Theism is not a liberal?

 

[PastorFaulk]

I would agree that we as baptist are getting a bit of a liberal black eye. It is why we must take steps to protect the true faith of Christianity. Open Theism is just apart of a downward spiral to denying the existance of God... First chip away at God's attributes, then he will be a weak idol that isn't worthy of worship. Any pastor who teaches such should dealt with biblically, by personall confrentation, and they slowly widen the circle of influence until he either calls open theism what it is, heresy, or the church must move to find a shepherd who wont deny God.

 

[Dale-c]

Pastor Faulk, welcome to the board.
I am new to the idea of open theism but it is a natural end of free will theology.
I first heard of the open theism theology listening to a series called "Of God's Decree" by a reformed Baptist Pastor from California.
It was excellent.
I am glad you have taken the time to expose this heresy.

 

[Grasshopper]

Pastor- Central Baptist Church, Okinawa Japan

BA- Biblical Lang. Howard Payne University

Funny, my pastor went to Howard Payne.

 

[webdog]

Pastor Faulk, welcome to the board.
I am new to the idea of open theism but it is a natural end of free will theology.
I first heard of the open theism theology listening to a series called "Of God's Decree" by a reformed Baptist Pastor from California.
It was excellent.
I am glad you have taken the time to expose this heresy.

It is not the natural end of free will theology. Is fatalism the natural end of your theology?

 

[Bro. Williams]

It is not the natural end of free will theology. Is fatalism the natural end of your theology?

webdog: let us join where we can and agree when we can. i will give you an amen and agree with your point wholeheartedly.

Open theism is a rejection of easily understood passages.

The free will/Calvinist debate is not so easy to make a Biblical decision on, that is my humble opinion. It is much like the OSAS argument and anti-argument, each side having varying verses and sometimes the same verses to prove their side. I have not seen credible examples of scripture to back up open theism in the least.

 

[npetreley]

Pastor Faulk, didn't you play Columbo? I loved that show.

 

[Bro. Williams]

Pastor Faulk, didn't you play Columbo? I loved that show.

:laugh: Random... but funny. Methinks you need to go to sleep.

 

[skypair]

Here's the issue as I see it...

Free will is "dead" if there is not a point in eternity past that God didn't know whether I would believe or not. His knowing makes it His decision.

Now what He can do and does do is foresee that I will choose Him -- something He didn't know the instant before He knew/learned it. Furthermore, He "learned" all this "before the foundation of the world" as He knew everything else before He set creation in motion.

But God could hardly be the self-existent cause if He knew everything already. To know everyting already is for everything to be as eternal as He is -- and without previous cause as He is.

Put another way, God knows the "effect" He intends to have in creation and for inanimate objects, He can dictate the effect. But with any being that is created in His image with free will, the effect (salvation) can be foreseen but it cannot be fore-assured (predestined) until it is foreseen or foreknown, as Paul puts it in Rom 8:29.

skypair

 

[Steven2006]

Here's the issue as I see it...

Free will is "dead" if there is not a point in eternity past that God didn't know whether I would believe or not. His knowing makes it His decision.

Using that logic, then God chose to cause Adam to fall, and chooses to cause all to sin also.

 

[J.D.]

Here's the issue as I see it...

Free will is "dead" if there is not a point in eternity past that God didn't know whether I would believe or not. His knowing makes it His decision.

Now what He can do and does do is foresee that I will choose Him -- something He didn't know the instant before He knew/learned it. Furthermore, He "learned" all this "before the foundation of the world" as He knew everything else before He set creation in motion.

But God could hardly be the self-existent cause if He knew everything already. To know everyting already is for everything to be as eternal as He is -- and without previous cause as He is.

Put another way, God knows the "effect" He intends to have in creation and for inanimate objects, He can dictate the effect. But with any being that is created in His image with free will, the effect (salvation) can be foreseen but it cannot be fore-assured (predestined) until it is foreseen or foreknown, as Paul puts it in Rom 8:29.

skypair

Who said there's no open theists on BB?

 

[npetreley]

Who said there's no open theists on BB?

Yup. I put this on par with SP's statement that God tries to save everyone but fails. We need to put a few more limits on God beyond that - He's not quite as feeble as man yet.

 

[TCGreek]

Yup. I put this on par with SP's statement that God tries to save everyone but fails. We need to put a few more limits on God beyond that - He's not quite as feeble as man yet.

1. I continue to be stunned by those who are willing to diminish God and put him in their own theological box because they cannot allow him to be truly Sovereign.

2. Lost and wicked mean do not like the Sovereignty of God in all things. They just don't.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Yup. I put this on par with SP's statement that God tries to save everyone but fails.

I think you're confusing God's desires with His intentions...

God desires that all come to be in right relationship with Him.
He intends, at least for a time, to uphold a situation where humankind is free to reject Him.

The free will position maintains that God does not dictate all the actions of humanity, but instead enables us a to have shocking amount of freedom to do good or evil.

Humankind is free to exercise our will within the bounds/context of His permissive will.

God is sovereign is that He has designated the bounds/context of His permissive will and will one day end that indulgence toward those who persist in sin and call everyone to an account on the day of judgment.

 

[skypair]

Using that logic, then God chose to cause Adam to fall, and chooses to cause all to sin also.

That's RIGHT -- but it's SO WRONG!!

Do you see the insanity now?

skypair

 

[skypair]

1. I continue to be stunned by those who are willing to diminish God and put him in their own theological box because they cannot allow him to be truly Sovereign.

2. Lost and wicked mean (???) do not like the Sovereignty of God in all things. They just don't.

Npeterely, J.D., John Calvin --- If God IS our mind such that He never wonders what we will do, then indeed, we are not sovereign over our own lives. Truly then, fate is EVERYTHING and you are a "trophy wife!" :laugh: Go boast on the 1000 karat "ring" you THINK you have, but I think Satan is gonna want it back!

skypair

 

[skypair]

I think you're confusing God's desires with His intentions...

God desires that all come to be in right relationship with Him.
He intends, at least for a time, to uphold a situation where humankind is free to reject Him.

The free will position maintains that God does not dictate all the actions of humanity, but instead enables us a to have shocking amount of freedom to do good or evil.

Humankind is free to exercise our will within the bounds/context of His permissive will.

God is sovereign is that He has designated the bounds/context of His permissive will and will one day end that indulgence toward those who persist in sin and call everyone to an account on the day of judgment.

Thank you, BaptistBeliever -- wisdom is SO scarce aroung here! :thumbs:

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

Npeterely, J.D., John Calvin --- If God IS our mind such that He never wonders what we will do, then indeed, we are not sovereign over our own lives. Truly then, fate is EVERYTHING and you are a "trophy wife!" :laugh: Go boast on the 1000 karat "ring" you THINK you have, but I think Satan is gonna want it back!

skypair

1. In the words of Scripture, "Salvation is of the Lord."

2. We are willing to let God be God. Apparently you are not.

3. That which God has begun in us He will complete it at the coming of Christ (Phil.1:6), for it is Him who works in us both to will and to do according to His good pleasure.

4. We are simply putting God where He belongs, while others are willing to dethrone Him.

5. You continue to show your lack of understanding for the Sovereignty of God in all things when you continue to use that word "FATE."

 

[skypair]

2. We are willing to let God be God. Apparently you are not.

3. That which God has begun in us He will complete it at the coming of Christ (Phil.1:6), for it is Him who works in us both to will and to do according to His good pleasure.

4. We are simply putting God where He belongs, while others are willing to dethrone Him.

We? Are you SURE YOU are one of the saved? Let's see -- is God TOTALLY sovereign in YOUR life 24/7/365?? Are you ALWAYS doing His "good pleasure?" How sovereign is He in YOUR life? If you are "putting God where He belongs," no doubt these questions will be too trivial to answer, right?

skypair