The danger of teetotalism

[preachinjesus]

Might be a good sound bite but not really true. Merriam-Webster ": the principle or practice of complete abstinence from alcoholic drinks"

Even if you narrow the meaning to the idea of doing something for spiritual reasons it does not change the miracle at all. The Word nor the works of the Lord will never be obsolete especially by the acts or beliefs of men.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Apologies, I might be having a dense day.

FTR, I practice a personal convictional stance in which I completely abstain from all alcoholic beverages (can't do much about medicines) as part of my calling to be a pastor. However, I do not hold others (and other pastors) to my personal conviction. While the Bible is clear that drunkenness is sin, it is reasonable to note it permits alcohol consumption...even prescribes it in several places. That prescription is not absolute, but personal.

 

[OldRegular]

I
I bet you take meds now. I BET you take coumadin (most old folks do).

It's a blood thinner.

So is beer.

Yes I take medicine. No I don't take coumadin [warfarin]. It is a very dangerous medicine and I doubt most old folks take it. Aspirin is a blood thinner and cheaper than beer, and you can't get drunk on aspirin.

I have been going to the same cardiologist for 17+ years and he has yet to recommend that I drink any alcoholic beverage. So! he is a sorry doctor? I see him next week, God willing. If I think about it I will ask him about the pint a day!

And I am out of here!

 

[Luke2427]

Really not very nice Luke. Frankly I haven't followed the posts on the 5 threads very closely. I have only made two posts. That being said your openly expressed contempt for those who believe in total abstinence is deplorable. The use of words like stupid, ignorant, infantile is not becoming a pastor. I don't understand what your purpose could be by use of the threads. I assume you do not find it necessary to justify yourself in such a manner.

just using bible words

I have indicated on one thread that I was not a total abstinence person but my consumption is very limited. I simply have lost what ever taste I had for the stuff.

I don't have a problem, brother, for the 20th time with people who NEVER drink.

Not one IOTA of a problem do I have with such people.

The problem I have ALL OF US OUGHT TO HAVE.

It is with the danger of people who don't know beans from apple butter about how to interpret Scripture going about preach for doctrines the traditions of man.

I have three very close friends, Christian brothers who partake a little. All three, like me, have had bypass surgery. The oldest, a Baptist brother, likes beer. He had bypass surgery 17 years before me. A second Baptist brother, three months my elder, likes a little wine and had bypass surgery 7 years after me. The third, a Presbyterian elder and my oldest friend is one year younger than me, likes a little more wine and had bypass surgery 3 years after me. These man are my dear brothers. I have nothing but love for them. I would never condemn them for their modest indulgence. Neither do they condemn me or insult me for my abstinence.

This has nothing to do with the conversation as best I can tell.

Now I realize that the above statistics are anecdotal but they don't give much credence to your sermon! Sermons!

Neither do they hold a candle to the stats that people who have been trained to do these things who know immeasurably more than you or I about these things have provided.

 

[Luke2427]

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Apologies, I might be having a dense day.

FTR, I practice a personal convictional stance in which I completely abstain from all alcoholic beverages (can't do much about medicines) as part of my calling to be a pastor. However, I do not hold others (and other pastors) to my personal conviction. While the Bible is clear that drunkenness is sin, it is reasonable to note it permits alcohol consumption...even prescribes it in several places. That prescription is not absolute, but personal.

A wise and balanced position.

 

[Allan]

I posted this in the other thread and it needs to be viewed here apparently as well: This is for those who wish to see the facts from the other side of the coin and what many doctors and colleges are saying on the issue of moderate daily drinking.

From the Mayo Clinic, a very reputable health organization (one of many) ALL emphasis added to quoted texts are mine.

Here's a closer look at the connection between alcohol and your health.

Health benefits of moderate alcohol use

Moderate alcohol consumption may provide some health benefits. It may:

Reduce your risk of developing heart disease
Reduce your risk of dying of a heart attack
Possibly reduce your risk of strokes, particularly ischemic strokes
Lower your risk of gallstones
Possibly reduce your risk of diabetes

Even so, the evidence about the possible health benefits of alcohol isn't certain, and alcohol may not benefit everyone who drinks.

Moderate alcohol use may be of most benefit only if you're an older adult or if you have existing risk factors for heart disease, such as high cholesterol. If you're a middle-aged or younger adult, some evidence shows that even moderate alcohol use may cause more harm than good. In fact, if you're a woman and drink alcohol, talk to your doctor about taking supplemental folate to help reduce the risk of breast cancer associated with alcohol use. You can take other steps to benefit your cardiovascular health besides drinking — eating a healthy diet and exercising, for example.

Guidelines for moderate alcohol use

The 2010 Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommend that if you choose to drink alcohol you do so only in moderation — up to one drink a day for women or two drinks a day for men.

Examples of one drink include:

Beer: 12 fluid ounces (355 milliliters)
Wine: 5 fluid ounces (148 milliliters)
Distilled spirits (80 proof): 1.5 fluid ounces (44 milliliters)

It is of note, this does not encourage drinking but states there is a possibility it might help IF your older with heart issues, not middle aged and younger, in which case you may sustain more harm than good.. however one thing is certain.. they are certain!

And from Weill Cornwell Medical College, from their article: "Health Benefits of Alcohol Depend on Drinking in Moderation"

How much is too much?

Current guidelines recommend that older adults drink no more than one alcoholic beverage a day, but if you don’t drink at all, the American Heart Association advises against starting in order to gain some of the possible benefits. “I recommend to my patients who do drink alcohol to limit themselves to three drinks a week,” says Dr. Midoneck. “This should mean that you get some benefit while minimizing the risks.”

Note both are not opposed to drinking but these are medical experts and know the stats in relation not just to numbers but PEOPLE.

This part is just interesting as I didn't know this, so this is just a side bar:
The below doesn't take into account alcohol content only amount / calories

Drink Serving Size Calories
Red wine 5 oz. 100
White wine 5 oz. 100
Champagne 5 oz. 130
Light beer 12 oz. 105
Regular beer 12 oz. 140
Dark beer 12 oz. 170
Cosmopolitan 3 oz. 165
Martini 3 oz. 205
Long Island iced tea 8 oz. 400
Gin & Tonic 8 oz. 175
Rum & Soda 8 oz. 180
Margarita 8 oz. 200
Whiskey Sour 4 oz. 200

And lastly, for those who want a Medical perspective from accredited Doctors here is one to read from CHARLES S. LIEBER, MD
Alcohol Research and Treatment Center,
Section of Liver Disease and Nutrition,
Bronx VA Medical Center and Mount Sinai
School of Medicine, New York

Here is the first part:

ABSTRACT

We should not advise patients to start drinking alcohol for its
alleged cardiovascular benefits. The negative effects of
alcohol are well established, and the evidence of alcohol’s
benefits comes mainly from epidemiologic studies that were
not well controlled for other influences, such as lifestyle
factors. Moreover, we have other means of lowering
cardiovascular risk that are safe and proven. Those who are
healthy and whose drinking history shows little risk of
developing alcohol dependency may continue to drink
moderate amounts. Heavy drinkers should be advised to quit

and another portion: Here he makes a very unique observation regarding amount a person is to drink daily in connection to the fact the very person drinking so often can develop dependency on the substance - ie addicted to the substance:

Epidemiologic data not applicable to an
individual’s risk of alcohol dependency
...the authors also pointed out that national
guidelines recommend caution when applying
the results of epidemiologic studies of alcohol consumption to
individual patients, since optimal care requires
taking into account the many health effects of
alcohol and the individual’s susceptibility.

NOTE however his last comments:

TO DRINK (MODERATELY) OR NOT TO
DRINK: MY RECOMMENDATIONS
In view of the lack of definitive evidence for
beneficial effects of moderate drinking, Goldberg45
proposed to settle this issue by
assigning patients with cardiovascular disease
to an alcohol treatment study. However, such
a study would be ill advised, because of the
risk that a former abstainer might develop
alcohol dependence. The consequences for
the individual and for society could be catastrophic.
Nearly 20 years ago, in a New England
Journal of Medicine editorial,46
I stated that
whether a patient should start drinking must
take special circumstances into account, and
that still holds true today.
When intact judgment and motor coordination are essential, as in driving, temporary
cessation of alcohol intake is of course indicated. Abstinence is also advisable under
other special circumstances, such as pregnancy, since even moderate amounts of alcohol
may adversely affect the fetus.
Advising abstainers to take up moderate
drinking to protect their coronary arteries puts
them at risk for alcohol dependency and its
associated social and medical problems.
However, there is no compelling reason to
advise abstinence to our patients who are
already drinking at a moderate level and have
demonstrated the capacity to keep their
drinking at an acceptable level.

UNDERSTAND, I'm not opposed to people who drink, however the medical facts and many Medical physicians and Colleges, seem to not agree that in general moderate drinking is good for your health. Yet if you are ALREADY a moderate drinker and due to your drinking history do not seem prone to dependency, there is no reason to tell them to stop. However take note here his statement as well:

Advising abstainers to take up moderate
drinking to protect their coronary arteries puts
them at risk for alcohol dependency and its
associated social and medical problems.

This is a doctor speaking from a medical standpoint and not a Christian one. Drinking is not a sin but take care in compelling others to take up something God has not deemed necessary to bring them into.

 

[Luke2427]

I posted this in the other thread and it needs to be viewed here apparently as well: This is for those who wish to see the facts from the other side of the coin and what many doctors and colleges are saying on the issue of moderate daily drinking.

From the Mayo Clinic, a very reputable health organization (one of many) ALL emphasis added to quoted texts are mine.

It is of note, this does not encourage drinking but states there is a possibility it might help IF your older with heart issues, not middle aged and younger, in which case you may sustain more harm than good.. however one thing is certain.. they are certain!

And from Weill Cornwell Medical College, from their article: "Health Benefits of Alcohol Depend on Drinking in Moderation"

Note both are not opposed to drinking but these are medical experts and know the stats in relation not just to numbers but PEOPLE.

This part is just interesting as I didn't know this, so this is just a side bar:
The below doesn't take into account alcohol content only amount / calories


And lastly, for those who want a Medical perspective from accredited Doctors here is one to read from CHARLES S. LIEBER, MD
Alcohol Research and Treatment Center,
Section of Liver Disease and Nutrition,
Bronx VA Medical Center and Mount Sinai
School of Medicine, New York

Here is the first part:

and another portion: Here he makes a very unique observation regarding amount a person is to drink daily in connection to the fact the very person drinking so often can develop dependency on the substance - ie addicted to the substance:


NOTE however his last comments:


UNDERSTAND, I'm not opposed to people who drink, however the medical facts and many Medical physicians and Colleges, seem to not agree that in general moderate drinking is good for your health Maybe some, but that seems to be stressed as a case by case issue.

All this research does, Allan, is support what I am purporting.

It supports the responsible consumption of alcohol.

One of the studies here says that they do not recommend telling people who do not drink to start drinking due to the negative effects of alcohol. No negative effects are expounded but I bet they have to do with the possibility of ABUSE- not moderate use (which the rest of the study supports).

And not one word of this negates the study I have provided.

 

[Allan]

All this research does, Allan, is support what I am purporting.

It supports the responsible consumption of alcohol.

...

And not one word of this negates the study I have provided.

Did I say it was to negate it? No. You miss understanding of my posting entirely.

My point is that alcohol is not good for most people regarding health and dependency(of which no man can predict), and that one should not try to get others to become moderate drinkers or drinkers at all when they never were to begin with. I stating this regarding the medical aspect only - In fact, the main thrust of what I gave is that the alcoholic benefits are sketchy at best and still not for the many.

That is my point, not against Alcohol as a sin, but that one should not do it just cause others want to or that there might be some benefit when the other side of that coin is something even the medical community take great caution with. Know the risks before you entertain the action. You gave benefits, nothing wrong with that.. I gave the other side of the coin.

One of the studies here says that they do not recommend telling people who do not drink to start drinking due to the negative effects of alcohol. No negative effects are expounded but I bet they have to do with the possibility of ABUSE- not moderate use (which the rest of the study supports).

Nope.. there is a lot there and while some does deal with abuse, the majority is on moderate and light drinking. It is a report that proves the 'positive' reports are not as positive as they claim and breaks it down to prove it. It even gives case studies were the people who were moderate drinkers had NO effect positively. The whole thing is 5 pages long and in a bit smaller script than this.

 

[Luke2427]

I found this study that provides some interesting facts:

Benefits of Moderate Drinking Result from Alcohol Itself

by David J. Hanson, Ph.D.

Some writers have been arguing that wine drinkers tend to be healthier than others because they generally have better health habits, not because they consume alcohol.

It’s true that wine drinkers tend to have better health habits than many others do. However, that can’t explain away the established medical fact that the moderate consumption of beer, wine or distilled spirits improves health and longevity. Both beer and liquor tend to confer the same health benefits as red wine; the benefit is found in the alcohol rather than in a specific beverage.

Alcohol reduces heart attacks, ichemic strokes and circulatory problems through a number of identified ways. They include:

1. Improving blood lipid profile by increasing HDL (“good”) cholesterol and decreasing LDL (“bad”) cholesterol.
2. Decreasing thrombosis (blood clotting) by reducing platelet aggregation, reducing fibrinogen (a blood clotter) and increasing fibrinolysis (the process by which clots dissolve).
3. Other ways such as increasing coronary blood flow, reducing blood pressure, and reducing blood insulin level.

The moderate consumption of alcohol appears to be more effective than most other lifestyle changes that are used to lower the risk of heart and other diseases. For example, the average person would need to follow a very strict low-fat diet, exercise vigorously on a regular basis, eliminate salt from the diet, lose a substantial amount of weight, and probably begin medication in order to lower cholesterol by 30 points or blood pressure by 20 points.

But medical research suggests that alcohol can have a greater impact on heart disease than even these hard-won reductions in cholesterol levels or blood pressure. Only cessation of smoking is more effective. Additionally, other medical research suggests that adding alcohol to a healthful diet is more effective than just following the diet alone.

After reviewing the research on heart diseases and stroke, Dr. David Whitten reported that "we don't have any drugs that are as good as alcohol” and noted investigator Dr. Curtis Ellison asserted that "abstinence from alcohol is a major risk factor for coronary heart disease."

The moderate consumption of alcohol appears to be beneficial in reducing or preventing even more diseases and health problems including angina pectoris bone fractures and osteoporosis, diabetes, digestive ailments, duodenal ulcer, erectile dysfunction (ED), essential tremors, gallstones, hearing loss, hepatitis A, kidney stones, liver disease, macular degeneration (a major cause of blindness), pancreatic cancer, Parkinson’s disease, poor cognition and memory, poor physical condition in elderly, rheumatoid arthritis, stress and depression, and type B gastritis.

It’s not surprising that the science-based Harvard Healthy Eating Pyramid recommends the regular moderate consumption of alcohol (beer, wine, or spirits) unless contraindicated.

It’s clear that the moderate consumption of alcohol improves health and increases longevity.

 

[Allan]

I found this study that provides some interesting facts:

Did you note that he doesn't quote any research, nor does he refer back to any.

What I gave are government Health organizations and Medical Colleges,and researcher who is well know and respected in his field of alcohol study (since he was one of the original arguers for it).
In fact, his very report, speaks to the point of what your quote is reaching toward. Taking a study and misapplying the research, not having all the relevant data. He speaks of the very thing in the article I gave.In fact much of what he gives to help increase is proven false in many reports (like the one I gave).

Is it odd that he states.. it's great, and doctors in our health organizations state otherwise, and our other Medical Colleges as well. I know there are reports out there with positives, but the 'fact' is they, by the medical community at large, are sketchy and problematic. The problem here brother is even when the facts are placed in front of you, you still wont listen or even pause to double check yourself.

 

[Luke2427]

Did you note that he doesn't quote any research, nor does he refer back to any.

Yes he did. Did you read it?

He quotes doctor researchers on heart disease and stroke.

He sites the Harvard Dietary Pyramid.

 

[Luke2427]

Oxford Journal of Medicine

This is from the Oxford Journal of Medicine:

CARDIOPROTECTIVE EFFECTS OF LIGHT–MODERATE CONSUMPTION OF ALCOHOL: A REVIEW OF PUTATIVE MECHANISMS

Next Section
Abstract

— There is abundant epidemiological and clinical evidence showing that light–moderate drinking is associated with a reduced risk of coronary heart disease (CHD), total and ischaemic stroke and total mortality in middle-aged and elderly men and women. The epidemiological evidence suggests a J- or U-shaped relationship between alcohol and CHD. However, the apparent benefits of moderate drinking on CHD mortality are offset at higher drinking levels by increasing risk of death from other types of heart diseases (cardiomyopathy, arrhythmia etc.), neurological disorders, cancer, liver cirrhosis, and traffic accidents. The plausible mechanisms for the putative cardioprotective effects include increased levels of high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, decreased levels of low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, prevention of clot formation, reduction in platelet aggregation, and lowering of plasma apolipoprotein(a) concentration. Thus, alcohol reduces the risk of coronary vascular diseases both by inhibiting the formation of atheroma and decreasing the rate of blood coagulation.
Previous SectionNext Section


INTRODUCTION

Drinking excessive amounts of alcohol regularly for years is toxic to almost every tissue of the body. Many of the toxic effects of alcohol are due to disturbances of a wide variety of metabolic functions and organ damage. Long-term alcohol use increases the risk of liver disease, heart disease, peptic ulcers, certain types of cancers, complicated pregnancies, birth defects, and brain damage (Agarwal and Seitz, 2001). Heavy or binge drinking may even result in respiratory depression and death. Alcohol use can also cause mood changes and loss of inhibitions as well as violent or self-destructive behaviour.

On the other hand, epidemiological and clinical evidence shows that light–moderate drinking is associated with a reduced risk of coronary heart disease (CHD), total and ischaemic stroke and total mortality in middle-aged and elderly men and women (Doll, 1997; Grobbee et al., 1999; Rimm et al., 1999; Klatsky, 2001; Rotondo et al., 2001; van Tol and Hendriks, 2001). The evidence suggests a J- or U-shaped relationship between alcohol and CHD. This article reviews the epidemiological evidence for alcohol’s putative cardioprotective effects and discusses the plausible underlying biological mechanisms.
Previous SectionNext Section



ALCOHOL AND CHD MORBIDITY AND MORTALITY

Risk of death from all causes has been found to be significantly lower among men who drink moderately, compared to abstainers. Several epidemiological investigations have shown that a low to moderate level of alcohol intake has a definitive protective role against CHD and stroke. Such conclusions have been based upon epidemiological studies on the risks for heart disease, coronary artery disease and death in individuals with low or moderate alcohol intake, when compared with the corresponding risks in persons who do not consume alcohol at all (Rimm et al., 1999; Corrao et al., 2000; Meister et al., 2000; Agarwal and Srivastava, 2001). The dose–response curve usually is found to be J- or U-shaped, i.e. the risk is higher when alcohol consumption is high, lower when alcohol consumption is low or moderate, and tends to go up again in individuals not consuming any alcohol (Andreasson, 1998; San Jose et al., 1999). Level of alcohol consumption that has been associated with lower risk for CHD ranges as widely as from 1 drink daily to ∼3 drinks per day (Rimm et al., 1999; Gronbaek et al., 1999). When all cohort data of the above-mentioned studies are combined, there appears to be a decline in the risk for myocardial infarction at doses up to 1 drink per day, with little further change in risk associated with increased alcohol intake (Rimm et al., 1999). Berger et al. (1999) found that light–moderate alcohol consumption reduced the overall risk of stroke and risk of ischaemic stroke in men. The benefit was apparent with as little as 1 drink per week. Greater consumption up to 1 drink per day did not increase the observed benefit. In a Finnish study, Makela et al. (1997) observed that, among men aged 30–69 years, the beneficial effects of light– moderate alcohol consumption ‘prevented’ some 400 CHD deaths each year, which corresponds to 12–14% of the observed CHD deaths. Rimm et al. (1999) in their meta-analysis concluded that alcohol intake (30 g of alcohol per day) is causally related to 24.7% reduction in risk of CHD through changes in lipids, lipoproteins and fibrinogen.


ALCOHOL DRINKING PATTERN AND THE RISK OF CHD

The strongest inverse correlation between moderate drinking and CHD has been shown among both men and women who consumed 1–2 drinks per day on 5–6 days per week (McElduff and Dobson, 1997). Rimm et al. (1999) observed that men who reported drinking, on average, on 3–4 days per week had a relative risk of 0.66, compared with men who drank less than 1 day a week. Alcohol drinking pattern may also have a profound influence on the blood pressure effects of alcohol. Intervention studies in men have shown acute increases in blood pressure in men who drink predominantly at weekends, compared to longer-term pressor effects in regular daily drinkers (Marques-Vidal et al., 2001). The binge-drinking pattern observed among Northern Irish drinkers leads to physiologically disadvantageous consequences regarding blood pressure levels, whereas no such fluctuations in blood pressure levels were found for regular consumption noted among French drinkers (Puddey et al., 1999). Hence, exploration of any protective association of alcohol against CHD needs to consider carefully the implications of pattern of drinking for the relationship.
Previous SectionNext Section



ALCOHOL AND THE FRENCH PARADOX

The low CHD mortality rate observed in Mediterranean populations in association with red wine consumption and a high saturated fat intake has given rise to what is now popularly termed the ‘French paradox’. This phenomenon refers to people residing in certain parts of France and other Mediterranean countries where red wine is customarily consumed during meals. These populations show a low CHD mortality, despite living a lifestyle considered to have comparably high CHD risks, like those in the USA and many other developed countries (Criqi, 2001). This relationship has been observed in both men and women and in different age groups. Many investigators have claimed that wine is the significant factor explaining the French paradox (see below).

I'm particularly fond of the French paradox paragraph.

Here is a NATION of moderate drinkers- a NATION of them.

They eat a lot of bad foods but the study suggests that their regular moderate consumption of alcohol keeps their hearts healthy.

 

[Allan]

Yes he did. Did you read it?

He quotes doctor researchers on heart disease and stroke.

He sites the Harvard Dietary Pyramid.

Yes, I see his cited works.. did you know that many of his citations are some of my sites.. he is misapplying the states to support his data. Like under the Health tab.. where he cites different reports.. it is the very report I gave that is debunking the statements he is making

Did you also notice this at the botton of his pages.

This site does not dispense medical, legal, or any other advice and none should be inferred.

That says a lot

 

[Allan]

This is from the Oxford Journal of Medicine:



I'm particularly fond of the French paradox paragraph.

Here is a NATION of moderate drinkers- a NATION of them.

They eat a lot of bad foods but the study suggests that their regular moderate consumption of alcohol keeps their hearts healthy.

LOL>... you never read a a single thing I gave did you? You will not that this to has been debunked by:
Alcohol Research and Treatment Center,
Section of Liver Disease and Nutrition,
Bronx VA Medical Center and Mount Sinai
School of Medicine, New York

This is one of the premier Research centers for Alcohol and other medical issues related to and from it.
Here, since you wont take the time to actually read what is given you but choose to willfully ignore medical data presented that refutes your claim from the larger collective medical community.

Not all HDLs are the same. When the
role of HDL in cholesterol transport and its
protective effect against atherosclerosis
became apparent, it made sense to postulate
that the apparent lower incidence of coronary heart disease in moderate drinkers
might be due to the ethanol-induced elevation of HDL. However, although clinical laboratories generally report HDL as the combination of all fractions, HDL is in fact a heterogeneous group of lipoproteins with two
major subclasses: the less dense HDL2
, epidemiologically associated with a lower incidence of coronary heart disease, and the
more dense HDL3
, not clearly related to that
disease one way or the other. Indeed, agents
or conditions that are thought to affect coronary heart disease through HDL (such as
exercise and female sex) have been shown to
be associated with HDL2
, not HDL3
.
In one report, the increase in HDL after
alcohol consumption apparently involved
both HDL2
and HDL3
, with a major change in
HDL2
.7 By contrast, Gaziano et al8
reported
that the inverse association of moderate alcohol intake with the risk of myocardial infarction is mediated in large part by increases in
both HDL2
and HDL3
.
Conflicting reports. However, these various observations were made in alcoholics with
a relatively high intake of alcohol. It is now
well recognized that large amounts of alcohol
have adverse effects not only on the liver,9,10
but also on virtually all tissues of the body,
including the cardiovascular system,11
and it is
generally agreed that such high intakes are not
associated with protection against coronary
heart disease.12
Furthermore, Haskell et al13
reported that moderate doses of alcohol raised
levels of HDL3
but not HDL2
, and that upon
abstention from moderate consumption, levels
of HDL3
decreased, but not levels of HDL2
. In
addition, according to a study of Hartung et
al,14
consumption of alcohol in moderation
seems to be associated with increased HDL
cholesterol levels in inactive men but not in
men who run or jog regularly.
Thus, in view of these conflicting studies,
we must now reconsider some of the previously derived implications

The problem,as you can see, is that the tests are not consistent and all over the board. Thus any group can claim just about whatever they want, if they ignore the other studies which disprove them, or shows a different stat than what they want to show

 

[Allan]

Look Luke, you are missing my point so completely your facing the wrong direction.

My point is that the medical community is so inconsistent in what they understand regarding alcohol that they as a unit will not endorse moderate drinking as a viable health alternative.

It is that simple. Thus I can show you LARGE amounts of data on the subject and you can show me yours and it just proves my point more and more with every post.

THIS IS WHAT I'M SAYING

So stop trying to make it as though drinking moderately is good for everyone when the facts are, it isn't regarding everyone, just some - and even then you must be careful due to other facts such as dependency of which the person does not seek but becomes so without trying due to other factors.

And since I have COMPLETELY derailed your thread, I'm sorry. Take it back to what you were saying in the OP

 

[Crabtownboy]

It seems to me the risks of moderate drinking ... whatever that means ... outweigh the benefits:

Risks of Moderate Drinking

There are risks that might offset the benefits of moderate drinking. Research shows that adverse consequences may occur at relatively low levels of consumption (1).

Stroke. A review of epidemiologic evidence concludes that moderate alcohol consumption increases the potential risk of strokes caused by bleeding, although it decreases the risk of strokes caused by blocked blood vessels (21).

Motor vehicle crashes. While there is some evidence to suggest that low blood alcohol concentrations (BACs) bear little relationship to road crashes, impairment of driving-related skills by alcohol has been found to begin at 0.05 percent BAC or lower, with rapidly progressing deterioration as the BAC rises (22). A man weighing 140 pounds might attain a BAC of 0.05 percent after two drinks.

Interactions with medications. Alcohol may interact harmfully with more than 100 medications, including some sold over the counter (23). The effects of alcohol are especially augmented by medications that depress the function of the central nervous system, such as sedatives, sleeping pills, anticonvulsants, antidepressants, antianxiety drugs, and certain painkillers. There is a consequent increased danger of driving an automobile after even moderate drinking if such medications are taken (24). In advanced heart failure, alcohol may not only worsen the disease, but also interfere with the function of medications to treat the disease (25).

Cancer. Although most evidence suggests an increased risk for certain cancers only among the heaviest drinkers, moderate drinking may be weakly related to female breast cancer. In one study (26), breast cancer was approximately 50 percent more likely to develop in women who consumed three to nine drinks per week than in women who drank fewer than three drinks per week. Although evidence concerning large bowel cancer is conflicting, one study suggests the possibility of a weak relation to consumption of one or more drinks per day (27).

Birth defects. Several ongoing studies are exploring the fetal risks associated with low levels of alcohol consumption. In one study (28), chil dren whose mothers reported consuming an average of two to three drinks per day during pregnancy were smaller in weight, length, and head circumference and had an increased number of minor physical anomalies when examined at intervals through the age of 3. In addition, mothers' self-reported consumption of as few as two drinks per day during pregnancy was found to be related to a decrease in IQ scores of 7-year-old children (29).

The question of whether moderate drinking is a risk factor for the fetus is not altogether settled, because mothers' self-reports of alcohol consumption may be underestimates (30). However, animal research provides additional evidence for adverse fetal effects from low levels of drinking. Nervous system abnormalities occurred in monkeys whose mothers were exposed weekly to low doses of alcohol. An effect occurred at a maternal BAC as low as 0.024 percent (31). A 120-pound woman might attain this BAC after one drink. Similarly, low prenatal alcohol doses produced biochemical and physiological changes in rat brains (32,33).

Shift to heavier drinking. Recovering alcoholics, as well as people whose families have alcohol problems, may not be able to maintain moderate drinking habits (2). Once a person progresses from moderate to heavier drinking, the risks of social problems (for example, drinking and driving, violence, trauma) and medical problems (for example, liver disease, pancreatitis, brain damage, reproductive failure, cancer) increase greatly (34)

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/basics/l/blnaa16.htm

 

[saturneptune]

It seems the response to Luke's post is we have already been over this. It seems this is only the second time. It is his right to post whatever he pleases. Besides that, how many of you complain about the 24 hour a day, non stop threads on Calvinism vs free will? That must be into the thousands of threads by now.

 

[Bronconagurski]

It seems the response to Luke's post is we have already been over this. It seems this is only the second time. It is his right to post whatever he pleases. Besides that, how many of you complain about the 24 hour a day, non stop threads on Calvinism vs free will? That must be into the thousands of threads by now.

Good point. I would hate to see this OP take its place, as at least we are citing scripture when talking about Calvanism, instead of science.

 

[Arbo]

The danger of teetotalism

Isn't there another thread about this currently running? It seems Luke2427 just wants an argument for its own sake.

...And condemning those who abstain is neither fair nor graceful.

 

[Crabtownboy]

The danger of teetotalism

Isn't there another thread about this currently running? It seems Luke2427 just wants an argument for its own sake.

...And condemning those who abstain is neither fair nor graceful.

Luke seems very Pharisaical about the topic. I believe he really does not want to acknowledge there is a down side to moderate drinking that, to me, far outweighs any benefits.

 

[saturneptune]

The danger of teetotalism

Isn't there another thread about this currently running? It seems Luke2427 just wants an argument for its own sake.

...And condemning those who abstain is neither fair nor graceful.

There are not many posters on this board I find myself in agreement with as much as your posts across the board, theologically and politically. The way you word things comes across as very Christ-like, and even points out to me that some of my posts are not as gracious as yours. Sometimes reading your posts speak to me that this is not what the Lord would have said in response to a point of disagreement. In fact, I just deleted a response that was not so kind in a Calvinsim-free will thread.

The two reasons I cited earlier in this thread for me not drinking were my pattern of drinking and a witness to others. I agree with you comment in this way. I do not feel I have a right to condemn others for moderate drinking because I cannot. One is hard pressed to make a case for abstinence in Scripture. You are correct in the fact that neither side has no right to condemn the other.

My heart wants to reach a point where posts are made by stating positions backed up by Scripture without the words like heresey, pathetic, sad, false doctrine, etc.... In fact, the trap I find myself falling into, especially in the Calvin threads, is getting angered by the use of these words between posters. Once getting involved, I find myself doing the same thing in the back and forth exchange, doing the exact thing that angers me in the first place. Sometimes, as in the Calvin threads, I find myself getting into it by those using those words that are on the same side of election that I am.

That vicious cycle almost reminds me of Paul talking in Romans 7 and 8. Anyway, just wanted to say I appreciate the spirit and content of your posts.