The dark side of Roman Catholic Church

[Vikingas]

Historian Will Durant stated, "Compared with the persecution of heresy in Europe from 1227 to 1492, the persecution of Christians by Romans in the first 3 centuries after Christ was a mild and humane procedure. Making every allowance required by an historian and permitted to a Christian, we must rank the Inquisition, along with the wars and persecutions of our time, as among the darkest blots on the record of mankind, revealing a ferocity unknown in any beast."

The Inquisition rapidly developed a methodology and control that was impressively effective – so much so that one can see in it the precursor of Communists secret police (NKVD/KGB, of the Nazi SS and Gestapo … Here was a prototype for the kind of computerised records kept by modern police forces.

The last witch was executed in 1782, Inquisition was not abolished in Spain until 1820.

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/katalikai/ -

 

[Major B]

The Martyr's Mirror, a massive Anabaptist work, describes many more hundreds of years of persecution of separatists, Mennonites, early baptists, etc., by protestant persecutors.

In the US, Baptist and other non-state-religion denominations were forced to pay taxes to support established denominations as late as 1841!

When asked when he thought that Massachusetts would give up its tax-supported schools, the irascible John Adams said, "Never!"

In the 20th century, more people are estimated to have died for the Christian faith than in all of Christian history before then. Voice of the Martyrs has tracked the rate at 200,000-300,000 per year worldwide.

 

[Gold Dragon]

The notoriety of the Spanish Inquisition will forever colour the word inquisition. However, we should remember that the primary reason the inquisitions were instituted was to stamp out heresy and false teachings. Some inquisitions were very successful with this goal using less brutality than the Spanish Inquisition.

 

[mioque]

Interestingly enough that same spanish Inquisition is the force that prevented large scale witchhunts from taking place in Spain. It were the local secular courts in that country that several times tried to start up witch hunting campaigns throughout Spain, each time they found the inquisitors in their path proving that the people they were accusing were innocent and claiming that those courts had no right to conduct witch trials.
The only time that witches were executed in Spain was when a court in Barcelona temporarely threw out the Inquisition's claim that they had a monopoly on witch hunting on the grounds that they never actually caught witches.
The Spanish Inquisition vigorously hunted heretics, jews and moslims, interestingly enough compared to the deathtoll produced by the normal courts in Spain and Great-Brittain at the time they were a bunch of softies who rarely had people killed.

 

[HankD]

The Spanish Inquisition is not the only dark side of the Church of Rome/"Holy" Roman Empire.

Do Googles for instance of "persecution of Waldenses", "persecution of Huguenots", "persecution of Albigenses" "St. Bartholomew Day Massacre", etc.

Along the way you will find many verifiable horror stories.

Here is a sample:

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0811Inquisition.html

ON THE LATE MASSACRE IN PIEDMONT

by: John Milton (1608-1674)

VENGE, O Lord, thy slaughtered saints, whose bones
Lie scattered on the Alpine mountains cold;
Even them who kept thy truth so pure of old,
When all our fathers worshipped stocks and stones,
Forget not: in thy book record their groans
Who were thy sheep, and in their ancient fold
Slain by the bloody Piedmontese, that rolled
Mother with infant down the rocks. Their moans
The vales redoubled to the hills, and they
To heaven. Their martyred blood and ashes sow
O'er all the Italian fields, where still doth sway
The triple Tyrant; that from these may grow
A hundred fold, who, having learnt thy way,
Early may fly the Babylonian woe.

HankD

 

[stray bullet]

Originally posted by Vikingas:
Historian Will Durant stated, "Compared with the persecution of heresy in Europe from 1227 to 1492, the persecution of Christians by Romans in the first 3 centuries after Christ was a mild and humane procedure. Making every allowance required by an historian and permitted to a Christian, we must rank the Inquisition, along with the wars and persecutions of our time, as among the darkest blots on the record of mankind, revealing a ferocity unknown in any beast."

The Inquisition rapidly developed a methodology and control that was impressively effective – so much so that one can see in it the precursor of Communists secret police (NKVD/KGB, of the Nazi SS and Gestapo … Here was a prototype for the kind of computerised records kept by modern police forces.

The last witch was executed in 1782, Inquisition was not abolished in Spain until 1820.

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/katalikai/ -

The Inquistion itself lasted about 300 years, with about 10,000-20,000 executions. That's about 50 people a year being executed in the whole of Europe. The vast majority of these cases were from enemies of the state, threats to the various governments. The United States probably kills 50 terrorists a day and imprisons 50 domestic terrorists every year during the war on terrorism.

The Inquistion was only matched, if not exceeded, by the persecution by protestants. Luther saw it fitting to drown Anabaptists, while England executed Catholics. Worse than those, however, were the burning of innocent Christians labelled as 'witches', crimes with plagued not only Europe, but even the puritans of the US.

 

[stray bullet]

Originally posted by Major B:
The Martyr's Mirror, a massive Anabaptist work, describes many more hundreds of years of persecution of separatists, Mennonites, early baptists, etc., by protestant persecutors.

In the US, Baptist and other non-state-religion denominations were forced to pay taxes to support established denominations as late as 1841!

When asked when he thought that Massachusetts would give up its tax-supported schools, the irascible John Adams said, "Never!"

In the 20th century, more people are estimated to have died for the Christian faith than in all of Christian history before then. Voice of the Martyrs has tracked the rate at 200,000-300,000 per year worldwide.

Let's not forget another lovely US crime against humanity- the centuries of slavery. Strangely enough, taking place in the Baptist-dominated south.. of black baptist Christians.

 

[stray bullet]

Originally posted by HankD:
The Spanish Inquisition is not the only dark side of the Church of Rome/"Holy" Roman Empire.

Do Googles for instance of "persecution of Waldenses", "persecution of Huguenots", "persecution of Albigenses" "St. Bartholomew Day Massacre", etc.

Along the way you will find many verifiable horror stories.

Yes, because the best way to learn something is from an internet site with an axe to grind Albigenses would not be considered Christians by today's standards.

I would strongly encourage one investigating history to get it from reputable sources and investigate the actual groups themselves.

 

[HankD]

Albigenses would not be considered Christians by today's standards.

What in the world difference does that make?

Can you give the Scripture reference where Jesus or the apostles said to burn someone at the stake over a doctrinal issue?

If you noticed, I said these things are verifiable. Do you think John Milton was writting fiction?

HankD

 

[stray bullet]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Albigenses would not be considered Christians by today's standards.

What in the world difference does that make?

Can you give the Scripture reference where Jesus or the apostles said to burn someone at the stake over a doctrinal issue?

If you noticed, I said these things are verifiable. Do you think John Milton was writting fiction?

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]It was in response to the claim of 'Christian persecution'. I find it interesting the website you link to didn't touch on the beliefs of the Cathari very much. I wonder why that is? It's rare to hear people who talk about the supposed 'persecution' of the Cathari, who often attacked the hierarchy of the government and introduced bizarre beliefs... talk about what they actually believed.

As far as writting fiction, it is an obvious propaganda piece.. from an Englishman.

 

[HankD]

Yes, because the best way to learn something is from an internet site with an axe to grind Albigenses would not be considered Christians by today's standards.

I would strongly encourage one investigating history to get it from reputable sources and investigate the actual groups themselves.

Ok let's take one incident a time starting with the Saint Bartholomew Day Massacre:

Online encyclopedia

Historical fact always “varies” here are several accounts for the interested reader.

Columbia Encyclopedia:
This source cites that an estimated 3,000 were killed in Paris and 70,000 in all of France during the Saint Bartholomew Day Massacre and reports that news of the massacres was welcomed by the Pope and the King of Spain.
Found online in the public domain at http://columbia.thefreedictionary.com/Saint+Bartholomew's+Day,+massacre+of

The Catholic Encyclopedia
This source says that the number of victims in the Saint Bartholomew Day Massacre in the provinces is unknown but that the figures vary between 2000 and 100,000.
They cite the "Martyrologe des Huguenots", published in 1581 at 15,138 deaths
Found online in the public Domain at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13333b.htm

Wikipedia Encyclopedia
This source says that as many as 70,000 may have been killed in the Saint Bartholomew Day Massacre.
Found online in the Public Domain at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew's_Day_Massacre

Encyclopedia Britannica
This source cites 3000 murdered in Paris and probably tens of thousands in the provinces in the Saint Bartholomew Day Massacre and that and Pope Gregory XIII had a medal struck to celebrate the event.
Found online in the Public Domain at: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9064808

We could get into book reports concerning the Saint Bartholomew Day Massacre if you wish.

As far as writting fiction, it is an obvious propaganda piece.. from an Englishman.

Prove it since it so obvious.

The massacre(s) of the Vadois of the Piedmont valley is documented by several reputable historians.

It was in response to the claim of 'Christian persecution'. I find it interesting the website you link to didn't touch on the beliefs of the Cathari very much. I wonder why that is? It's rare to hear people who talk about the supposed 'persecution' of the Cathari, who often attacked the hierarchy of the government and introduced bizarre beliefs... talk about what they actually believed.

So you are saying the wholesale slaughter of people based upon religious belief is justified or can you explain what difference that should make to a Christian or a Church (which claims succession from Christ and the Apostles) from a system of values based upon different religious beliefs?

The name of this thread is specifically "The Dark Side of the Roman Catholic Church" not the "persecution of Christians" although they are part of the general picture of the "Dark Side of the Roman Catholic Church".

RE: the Cathari. We can look at their history and document the bloodshed done to them if you wish.

I wonder why that is? It's rare to hear people who talk about the supposed 'persecution' of the Cathari, who often attacked the hierarchy of the government

And that is one of the essentials of the Dark Side of the Roman Catholic Church, who wedded with the State and the "Holy" Roman Empire emerged as the firstborn and the 1000 year reign of terror followed thereafter.

HankD

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by HankD:
Ok let's take one incident a time starting with the Saint Bartholomew Day Massacre...

Good job with the above post.

I would only add to what has by already mentioned that behind many of the massacres that occured on the Colonial frontier by the natives were instigated by the French Roman Catholics and Jesuits. The early Christian settlers recognized that behind the threats that they faced was the menace of Romanism.

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by stray bullet:
I would strongly encourage one investigating history to get it from reputable sources and investigate the actual groups themselves.

What are the 'reputable sources' that you have in mind?

I'm aware that many Roman apologists seek to dispute the accounts that were recorded by the people that suffered through these tragedies. But I find that the people who actually witnessed the events are usually more 'reputable' that the revisionist 'reputable' apologists of decades and centuries later.

 

[Major B]

Originally posted by stray bullet:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Major B:
The Martyr's Mirror, a massive Anabaptist work, describes many more hundreds of years of persecution of separatists, Mennonites, early baptists, etc., by protestant persecutors.

In the US, Baptist and other non-state-religion denominations were forced to pay taxes to support established denominations as late as 1841!

When asked when he thought that Massachusetts would give up its tax-supported schools, the irascible John Adams said, "Never!"

In the 20th century, more people are estimated to have died for the Christian faith than in all of Christian history before then. Voice of the Martyrs has tracked the rate at 200,000-300,000 per year worldwide.

Let's not forget another lovely US crime against humanity- the centuries of slavery. Strangely enough, taking place in the Baptist-dominated south.. of black baptist Christians. </font>[/QUOTE]I am not sure what American slavery has to do with this discussion.

However, it is more properly titled African slavery, since it did not take place exclusively in the English colonies, and since the ones selling the Africans were other Africans. It was not "centuries" of American slavery. up until 1776, it was the system of the British Empire. From the winning of our freedom in 1783 until the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863 was only 80 years, and there were parts of the US where slavery was never legal.

Slavery was the way of the world for all of human history, it was not an American-invented system, nor were we either the first or last to end the system. The British Empire outlawed slavery only 32 years before we freed ourselves of slavery the hard way (1833); Brazil was another 20 years after us, and there are yet 27 million slaves in the world, many of them Africans sold by other Africans.

As for the South, the pre-Civil-War South was NOT "Baptist dominated." The Bible Belt before the war was the North! Furthermore, the abolition movement originated in and was largely sustained by evangelical Christians, especially in the British Empire and the US (John Newton, William Wilberforce, Issac Backus, Charles G. Finney.

The American South as a bastion of conservative religion actually is a condition that began to emerge after the Civil War, as the little-known "Revival in Gray" (the revival in the southern armies) resulted in planting hundreds of thousands of seeds in the disbanded southern armies.

As is well-documented in the scholarly book "The Reformation and Its Stepchildren" by Leonard Verduin, the "heretics" did include dualists such as the Bogomils, Paulicians, and Cathari, but that is no excuse for wholesale slaughter. The US Special Forces gets its unofficial motto from this period. Just before the ravaging of the main city of the Cathari, the Pope's head military officer said to papal legate, "Father, there are many good Catholics in the city." The archbishop replied, "Kill them all, God will take care of His own."

At the same time, there were other groups, such as the Waldensians and Unitas Fratrum, who were proto-protestants and orthodox in doctrine. And, of course, the victors wrote the history! To my knowledge, no primary sources exist that were authored by the Cathari.

Charles T. Buntin
History Teacher

[ January 19, 2006, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Major B ]

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by stray bullet:
The Inquistion was only matched, if not exceeded, by the persecution by protestants. Luther saw it fitting to drown Anabaptists, while England executed Catholics. Worse than those, however, were the burning of innocent Christians labelled as 'witches', crimes with plagued not only Europe, but even the puritans of the US.

You certainly make an excellent point. While the atrocities of the Spanish Inquisition cannot be denied, Romaphobes often use such examples to take potshots at the RCC while completely disregarding the other events you mention.

Let's face it folks, Christian history is by no means pure. We must accept that fact without excuse, warts and all, or be destined to repeat the mistakes of the past.

 

[Major B]

Worse than those, however, were the burning of innocent Christians labelled as 'witches', crimes with plagued not only Europe, but even the puritans of the US.

In the colonies, though there may have been other instances, there was one large wave of witch hysteria in one place, Salem. The governor of the colony was appalled, as were others. And, of course, the Inquisition burned its share of witches.

Of course, no church or group of churches could match what Stalin did by himself in 29 years, or Mao in 27.

 

[HankD]

Let's face it folks, Christian history is by no means pure. We must accept that fact without excuse, warts and all, or be destined to repeat the mistakes of the past.

The local church which I attend and have membership is autonomous and there is no history of it having burned any one at the stake in its almost 100 year autonomy as a local church founded upon the principles of the Word of God, the final authority of faith and practice.

On the other hand the Church of Rome claims to be the Apostolic Church founded upon the "rock" the Apostle Peter, supposedly the first Bishop of the Church of Rome succeeded by subsequent "popes" unto this very day.

"love one another" He said. Not burn or garret one another.

The Church of Rome does not do these things any more for sure, but I believe it's mostly because the victimized men and women of the Reformation stood up after the 1000 year Reign of Terror of the "Holy" Roman Empire and said "We're madder than hades and we are not going to take it any more!".

To be sure the last few popes have been kind and gentle men.

Let's hope they all continue in this new found tradition.

Then we can forgive this part of their dark side.

In fact Pope John Paul II issued an Apology for wrong done to "women, Jews, Gypsies, other Christians and Catholics." and issued a document Memory and Reconciliation: The Church and the Faults of the Past on the church's 'Request for Forgiveness' theme day on 2000-MAR-12.

Truly a Christian gesture by a man (IMO) of high honor and courage and who was probably opposed by others in high leadership (College of Cardinals) to the publication.

At least one man in high leadership of the Church of Rome came around to the place of humility instead of the usual white wash.

But will it last? Time will tell.

HankD

 

[mioque]

Major B
"To my knowledge, no primary sources exist that were authored by the Cathari."
"
Actually a number of Albigensian texts from the era have survived.
The Rituel cathare de Lyon being the most famous.

 

[Major B]

Originally posted by mioque:
Major B
"To my knowledge, no primary sources exist that were authored by the Cathari."
"
Actually a number of Albigensian texts from the era have survived.
The Rituel cathare de Lyon being the most famous.

Thank you for your input--are any of them available in an English translation.

 

[mioque]

When I studied churchhistory in the 80's we read them French. A number of them have since been translated into Dutch.
It would be logical that all of them have been translated into English by now, but I've never actually seen a complete English language edition of any Albigensian text.
What I do know is that several American scholars who frequent this board seem to be basically unaware of both the existance of primary sources concerning the Albigenses and of the history books that use these sources.