The dark side of Roman Catholic Church

[Bismarck]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
At least the fact that Pope John Paul II apologized about the past is better than nothing.

I like much of your post, but do the WORDS bring Galileo back to LIFE?

Words are HOT AIR. "Talk is cheap". PLEASANT Hot Air... but HOT AIR.

 

[Bismarck]

Originally posted by stray bullet:
It was in response to the claim of 'Christian persecution'. I find it interesting the website you link to didn't touch on the beliefs of the Cathari very much. I wonder why that is? It's rare to hear people who talk about the supposed 'persecution' of the Cathari, who often attacked the hierarchy of the government and introduced bizarre beliefs... talk about what they actually believed.

As far as writting fiction, it is an obvious propaganda piece.. from an Englishman.

This is not sound logic. It is "Circular Reasoning".

The primary sources on the Cathari... are their Catholic arch-enemies.

You cannot expect to glean unbiased history from one-sided sources. That would not fly in any History Journal.

You said they "attacked" the Church hierarchy?

You mean they tortured and burned the Church leaders at the stake?

Or do you just mean they voiced DISSENT against the authorities who tortured and burned them?

They introduced "bizarre" beliefs? Like torturing people in violation of scripture?

"Bizarre" enough to warrant death?

Joseph Stalin glibbly shrugged off the deaths of many. Is that a "bizarre" belief?

 

[Bismarck]

Originally posted by Johnv:
You certainly make an excellent point. While the atrocities of the Spanish Inquisition cannot be denied, Romaphobes often use such examples to take potshots at the RCC while completely disregarding the other events you mention.

Let's face it folks, Christian history is by no means pure. We must accept that fact without excuse, warts and all, or be destined to repeat the mistakes of the past.

This is faulty logic.

The "witch hunts" of Salem killed less than 20 people. Throughout the Puritan colonies, perhaps a few hundred were killed in as many years.

And they also occurred in the South, where the Catholic and High Anglican Stuart supporting Royalist Cavaliers were the dominant aristocracy.

Even if we accept the figure of 20,000 killed in the Inquisition, that is still 100x greater than the death toll at the hands of the Puritans. ONE HUNDRED TIMES.

And that figure of 20,000 EXECUTIONS...

does not include those who died IN PRISON from malnourishment and disease, which might have amounted to perhaps 100,000 more.

 

[Bismarck]

Originally posted by Monergist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HankD:
Ok let's take one incident a time starting with the Saint Bartholomew Day Massacre...

Good job with the above post.

I would only add to what has by already mentioned that behind many of the massacres that occured on the Colonial frontier by the natives were instigated by the French Roman Catholics and Jesuits. The early Christian settlers recognized that behind the threats that they faced was the menace of Romanism. </font>[/QUOTE]The early French Revolution brought about legal recognition to the Protestant Huegenots, who were even allowed to return from exile.

1,000,000 Frenchmen died in that Revolution.

Napoleon sold it all out to Rome, and was crowned by Pope Pius 4 in 1804.

Napoleon asked his general whether he liked all the pomp. The general replied, "A fine show, sir, all that's missing are the million or so Frenchmen who died to destroy what you have just rebuilt."

France has remained a Catholic bastion ever since.


Interestingly, Napoleon was also backed by the infamous Jacobin Club, who were the forerunners of modern Communism. They wore red, sat on the Left side of the parliament chamber, and campaigned amonst the "proletariat" for the deaths of "Enemies of the People" (Reign of Terror) and advocated a "Revolutionary Dictatorship" that they realized under Napoleon.

France and Italy are arch-Catholic... and the bastions of Leftism in Europe.

England won the "French & Indian Wars" (1689 - 1763) because, as a Protestant nation, it's freer economy grew wealthier than that of Catholic France.

Indeed, as a rule of thumb, PROTESTANT = CAPITALIST. America, England, Lutheran Germany....

So, as it would happen, everytime a spiritual son of the Jacobin Club -- to wit, a Communist nation -- attacks and conquers a CAPITALIST enemy...

they are, in the main, destroying a PROTESTANT country.

Deutschland was the HEARTLAND of the Reformation....

and Deutschland has been brutalized in TWO WORLD WARS, as it would happen to happen.

Deutschland was led into World War 1 by its Junker elite -- who trace some heritage back to the Catholic crusading Teutonic Knights -- AFTER they booted out Odo von Bismarck in 1890. Odo von Bismarck, the "George Washington" of Deutschland, was expelled from power by a political coalition of CATHOLICS and COMMUNISTS, both of whom had been targeted by Bismarck. Without Bismarck's guidance, Germany switched course, antagonized its neighbors, who then ganged up on it in WW1. Interestingly also, the ruling House of Hanover in England at that time... was a collateral branch of the very CATHOLIC Hanovers who had been driven from their manors by Bismarck in 1866 during the German Unification. So, as it would happen, the Catholic Hanovers got a measure of revenge against Bismarck's creation (unified Germany) in WW1 when they sent Englishmen into battle. (Bismarck was a Pietest Lutheran Protestant.)

Moreover, the Pope backed Hitler. And so did Stalin (Icebreaker, by Victor Suvorov). So, again as in 1890, the Catholics and Communists were in bed together. And again, as in 1890, this coalition of Catholics and Communists had DRASTIC consequences for Deutschland -- the HEARTLAND of the PROTESTANT REFORMATION.

Practically the only countries spared Stalin's brutality were:

France (Catholic)
Italy (Catholic)
Spain (Catholic)
Portugal (Catholic)
England (ruled by a collateral branch of the Catholic Hanovers)

(The only reason Scandinavia did not fall was because of the unexpectedly fierce resistance of the Fins, who saw the writing on the wall and fought accordingly. Had Finland fallen, the Soviets would have rolled through Sweden to "liberate" Norway and Denmark. Had that happened, EVERY PROTESTANT NATION ON EARTH (outside of Hanoverian England) would have fallen behind the Iron Curtain.)


Mexico today is ruled by the literal descendants of the Spanish CATHOLIC Conquistadors.

Mexico is ALSO a Communist nation. It still is governed by its 1917 "Viva Zapata!" SOCIALIST constitution... and in THIS YEAR's presidential elections, the favored presidential candidate comes from the reformed Mexican Communist Party.

Communist-Catholic Mexico is pumping illegals into America at the rate of millions per year.

Soon the entire American SW will return to Mexican rule.

When that happens, and the Mexicans drive the "gringos" out of the lands they "stole" in the 1849 Mexican-American War, a million square miles of land, American PROTESTANT land, will fall back under Catholic dominion.

Which will also represent the advance of (Mexican) Socialist Communism.


There are other interesting links between COMMUNISM and CATHOLICISM, over and above those listed by the first poster, about the parallels between the Inquisition and the KGB / Gestappo etc.

Ever heard of "Liberation Theology"?

 

[Eliyahu]

Very interesting analysis,since I have noticed there was always Holy Roman Catholics where Genocide or Masacres took place, not as a victim.

 

[Melanie]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Very interesting analysis,since I have noticed there was always Holy Roman Catholics where Genocide or Masacres took place, not as a victim.

I reckon you read the expurgated versions of history...last I looked there were a frightful number of Catholics in the NAZI prision camps and heck there is even a martyered saint or two....do a google search of Maximillian Kolbe for a start

 

[Helen]

There are always individuals who are not in the mainstream of their group. That is not the point. But the Roman Catholic church had an awful lot of financial involvement with Nazi Germany!

 

[mioque]

Bismarck
About that pope (Pius XII) supporting Hitler

Pius XII.? Er ist der einzige Mensch, der mir immer widersprochen und niemals gehorcht hat.
-Adolf Hitler in 1944

Or translated into English.
"Pius XII? He is the only human being who has always contradicted me and who has never obeyed me."

I got the quote from "De zwijgende paus? Protest van Pius XII en zijn medewerkers tegen de jodenvervolging in Europa."
Written by Dr. Hans Jansen

 

[Melanie]

I would doubt your sources very much Helen, the RCC is made up of humans and therefore bad things have and do occur but I suggest it was a few individuals that you speak rather than the greater, poor old Pius XII has been slandered forever, but the senior Rabbi of Rome converted to Catholicism because of the aid and daring displayed by the Catholic Church in working to preserve the Jews that were in Rome from the Nazi machine, after the war.

 

[Helen]

Here, Briony-Gloriana, and I think the sources are pretty solid:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html


also interesting:
http://www.red-ice.net/specialreports/2005/07jul/rothschildsnazipope.html

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm -- althought this site appears to be anti-Christian in general, the photographs are remarkable and show the Roman Catholic support for Hitler rather clearly.

 

[mioque]

Bismarck
If one actually reads that link of yours.
http://jsr.as.wvu.edu/2002/Reviews/Farrelly.htm
One discovers the following ...

"There were never more than twenty or twenty-five priests in Maryland throughout the colonial period, and for most of that time, the number was actually more like eight to ten. Yet this handful of priests was serving a community that was spread throughout the eastern and western shores and numbered as much as 16,000. Catholics outside St. Mary’s County rarely saw a priest more than once a month."
"

The clergy weren't exactly an important faction in Maryland.

 

[mioque]

Helen
That first link is good if possibly a little incomplete without its companion.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef.html

That 2nd link is standard conspiracy theory la la land.

Agree with you on the third one allthough it doesn't paint a complete picture.

 

[Eliyahu]

After committing genocide and masacres, Roman Catholic deny, deny, deny, as usual with the sons of Devil!


http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljustice/tribunals/2001/0716rwnd.htm

http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljustice/rwandarch.htm


KIGALI, Rwanda (Reuters) -- Rwanda has arrested a Belgian priest and accused him of inciting people to participate in the 1994 Rwandan genocide, a Rwandan prosecutor said on Thursday.
Rwandan authorities arrested Guy Theunis, a member of the Catholic order of the "White Fathers", in the transit area of Kigali airport on Tuesday, Belgium's foreign ministry said.
Rwanda's national prosecutor Emmanuel Rukangira told Reuters that Theunis is accused of publishing articles in the Kangura newspaper that incited Rwandan Hutus to commit acts of genocide.
His case will be forwarded to the traditional "gacaca" courts that Rwanda is using to clear a backlog of cases from the genocide, Rukangira said.
Theunis left Rwanda in 1994 at the time of the genocide in which Hutu extremists killed an estimated 800,000 minority Tutsis and moderate Hutus in a three-month long bloodbath from which Rwanda is still recovering.
Theunis was on his way to Belgium via Rwanda from another country in Africa when he was arrested. He was a missionary in the central African nation from 1970 to 1994.
Belgian Foreign Minister Karel De Gucht said on Wednesday he was surprised Rwanda had not informed Belgium about the case.
"Especially since our country has proved in the past that people who were involved in the 1994 genocide are effectively prosecuted," De Gucht said in a statement.
Belgian courts convicted two Rwandan brothers in June and in 2001 convicted four Rwandans of involvement in the genocide.
Rwandan Foreign Minister Charles Murigande said Thursday that his country was preparing a formal response to Belgium.
Europeans accused
Theunis is the first European to be imprisoned in Rwanda over genocide charges, but not the first charged in the slaughter, Rukangira said.
Belgian journalist Georges Ruggiu was sentenced to 12 years in prison after pleading guilty at a United Nations tribunal in 2000 to inciting genocide through radio broadcasts.
Rukangira said prosecutors are pursuing cases against several other Europeans.
A member of the White Fathers told Belgian radio he thought it was unlikely that Theunis could have had any involvement in the genocide.
"I can't really see how he could be accused of genocide as he was evacuated along with a lot of his countrymen and I remember he was the co-founder of a movement to defend human rights and freedom," White Father Henri Blanchart said.
As of May 2005, the U.N.-established International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR) in Arusha, Tanzania, has handed down 19 judgments involving 25 accused. Of these, 22 were convicted and three acquitted.
Copyright 2005 Reuters. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

 

[mioque]

Eliyahu
Guy Theunis was extradited to Belgium and that country has been running an investigation into his activities in Ruanda. It was started in November 2005 and as far as I know not completed yet.
It is distinctly possible that he is innocent. The man has very been critical towards the Ruandan government in the past.
http://www.tertio.be/archief/2005/T293/T293-bu1.htm
http://www.demorgen.be/binnenland/?news=B292742

Now that possibility doesn't apply to the 5 clergymen charged in the following article.
All 5 were pretty much guilty.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljustice/tribunals/rwanda/2002/0512faith.htm
http://www.facinghistorycampus.org/campus/tj/tj.nsf/0/68237D9D971CF2A885256E67005BC3C2

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Devout Roman Catholics like Adolf Hitler,

Sorry, just couldn't stop

at that

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by HankD:
ON THE LATE MASSACRE IN PIEDMONT

by: John Milton (1608-1674)

VENGE, O Lord, thy slaughtered saints, whose bones
Lie scattered on the Alpine mountains cold;
Even them who kept thy truth so pure of old,
When all our fathers worshipped stocks and stones,
Forget not: in thy book record their groans
Who were thy sheep, and in their ancient fold
Slain by the bloody Piedmontese, that rolled
Mother with infant down the rocks. Their moans
The vales redoubled to the hills, and they
To heaven. Their martyred blood and ashes sow
O'er all the Italian fields, where still doth sway
The triple Tyrant; that from these may grow
A hundred fold, who, having learnt thy way,
Early may fly the Babylonian woe.

HankD

Milton was a unitarian heretic who wrote fiction; you did know that, didn't you?

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Bismarck:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Monergist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HankD:
Ok let's take one incident a time starting with the Saint Bartholomew Day Massacre...

Good job with the above post.

I would only add to what has by already mentioned that behind many of the massacres that occured on the Colonial frontier by the natives were instigated by the French Roman Catholics and Jesuits. The early Christian settlers recognized that behind the threats that they faced was the menace of Romanism. </font>[/QUOTE]The early French Revolution brought about legal recognition to the Protestant Huegenots, who were even allowed to return from exile.

1,000,000 Frenchmen died in that Revolution.

Napoleon sold it all out to Rome, and was crowned by Pope Pius 4 in 1804.

Napoleon asked his general whether he liked all the pomp. The general replied, "A fine show, sir, all that's missing are the million or so Frenchmen who died to destroy what you have just rebuilt."

France has remained a Catholic bastion ever since.


Interestingly, Napoleon was also backed by the infamous Jacobin Club, who were the forerunners of modern Communism. They wore red, sat on the Left side of the parliament chamber, and campaigned amonst the "proletariat" for the deaths of "Enemies of the People" (Reign of Terror) and advocated a "Revolutionary Dictatorship" that they realized under Napoleon.

France and Italy are arch-Catholic... and the bastions of Leftism in Europe.

England won the "French & Indian Wars" (1689 - 1763) because, as a Protestant nation, it's freer economy grew wealthier than that of Catholic France.

Indeed, as a rule of thumb, PROTESTANT = CAPITALIST. America, England, Lutheran Germany....

So, as it would happen, everytime a spiritual son of the Jacobin Club -- to wit, a Communist nation -- attacks and conquers a CAPITALIST enemy...

they are, in the main, destroying a PROTESTANT country.

Deutschland was the HEARTLAND of the Reformation....

and Deutschland has been brutalized in TWO WORLD WARS, as it would happen to happen.

Deutschland was led into World War 1 by its Junker elite -- who trace some heritage back to the Catholic crusading Teutonic Knights -- AFTER they booted out Odo von Bismarck in 1890. Odo von Bismarck, the "George Washington" of Deutschland, was expelled from power by a political coalition of CATHOLICS and COMMUNISTS, both of whom had been targeted by Bismarck. Without Bismarck's guidance, Germany switched course, antagonized its neighbors, who then ganged up on it in WW1. Interestingly also, the ruling House of Hanover in England at that time... was a collateral branch of the very CATHOLIC Hanovers who had been driven from their manors by Bismarck in 1866 during the German Unification. So, as it would happen, the Catholic Hanovers got a measure of revenge against Bismarck's creation (unified Germany) in WW1 when they sent Englishmen into battle. (Bismarck was a Pietest Lutheran Protestant.)

Moreover, the Pope backed Hitler. And so did Stalin (Icebreaker, by Victor Suvorov). So, again as in 1890, the Catholics and Communists were in bed together. And again, as in 1890, this coalition of Catholics and Communists had DRASTIC consequences for Deutschland -- the HEARTLAND of the PROTESTANT REFORMATION.

Practically the only countries spared Stalin's brutality were:

France (Catholic)
Italy (Catholic)
Spain (Catholic)
Portugal (Catholic)
England (ruled by a collateral branch of the Catholic Hanovers)

(The only reason Scandinavia did not fall was because of the unexpectedly fierce resistance of the Fins, who saw the writing on the wall and fought accordingly. Had Finland fallen, the Soviets would have rolled through Sweden to "liberate" Norway and Denmark. Had that happened, EVERY PROTESTANT NATION ON EARTH (outside of Hanoverian England) would have fallen behind the Iron Curtain.)


Mexico today is ruled by the literal descendants of the Spanish CATHOLIC Conquistadors.

Mexico is ALSO a Communist nation. It still is governed by its 1917 "Viva Zapata!" SOCIALIST constitution... and in THIS YEAR's presidential elections, the favored presidential candidate comes from the reformed Mexican Communist Party.

Communist-Catholic Mexico is pumping illegals into America at the rate of millions per year.

Soon the entire American SW will return to Mexican rule.

When that happens, and the Mexicans drive the "gringos" out of the lands they "stole" in the 1849 Mexican-American War, a million square miles of land, American PROTESTANT land, will fall back under Catholic dominion.

Which will also represent the advance of (Mexican) Socialist Communism.


There are other interesting links between COMMUNISM and CATHOLICISM, over and above those listed by the first poster, about the parallels between the Inquisition and the KGB / Gestappo etc.

Ever heard of "Liberation Theology"? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, and the present Pope has written extensively against it, as did his predecessor. Your point?

Your point seems to be a complete muddle. One million Frenchmen dies in the Revolution? You're exaggerating by a factor of at least 10, but never mind, I like a good read of fiction on a Sunday afternoon; we mustn't let inconvenient things like facts get in the way of our argument, now must we? One moment France is a 'Catholic bastion', the next it's swarming with communists. Well, which is it? You also conjure up a picture of Catholics and communists in bed together( whereas Eliyahu castigates the Catholic General Franco who went round shooting communists is his spare time) which is, frankly, an absurd notion, as a trawl through the histories of Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary in the last 60 years will demonstrate to you. You also seem to think that the Prussian junkers] were Catholic in sympathy whereas they were in fact staunch Lutherans. Furthermore, for your information, the Hanoverians who reigned in not ruled over England between 1714 and 1837 weren't Catholic but Lutheran initially and then Anglican; the whole reason they were allowed to ascend the throne is that they weren't Catholic, otherwise we'd have carried on with the Catholic Stuarts. Ever read the Act of Settlement?

Get your facts right and the rest of us might begin to take you a bit more seriously...

 

[Major B]

Matt, I don't want to intrude into the fight, and I know that Arians and Unitarians have claimed him, but I do believe I remember reading portions of The Christian Doctrine, published posthumously, where Milton specifically recanted his earlier semi-Arian views and took a Trinitarian position.

Also he did write some fiction, but also a lot of serious history and theology.

 

[Matt Black]

Thanks for that, but he certainly was Unitarian when he wrote Paradise Lost and On the Late Massacre in Piedmont. This does not alter the fact of the persecution of the Waldenses over the centuries but one has to factor into it a certain poetic licence; also, proto-evangelicals which the Waldenses were, I'm not sure they'd want a Unitarian champion...

++Ratzinger (as he then was) wrote the following critique of liberation theology in the early 1980s:“liberation is first and foremost liberation from the radical slavery of sin…As a logical consequence, it calls for freedom from many different kinds of slavery in the cultural, economic, social and political spheres, all of which derive ultimately from sin…[emphases on]…liberation from servitude of an earthly and temporal kind…seem to put liberation from sin in second place.” His predecessor also attacked liberationist soteriology by saying that it is a “mistake to state that political, economic and social liberation coincide with salvation in Jesus Christ.”

 

[nate]

Helen,

The site nobeliefs.com/nazi's they claim Hitler was a great Christian or somehow a Practicing Catholic this is false. Many of the pictures on that site were nothing more than propaganda trying to sway the largely Lutheran and Catholic Germany that Hitler was a good leader.