The Days Are Coming When There Will Be A New Covenant With Israel & Judah

[OldRegular]

144,000

The "main harvest" will be brought in during the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation.
We, as the "first fruits" will be safely tucked away in the third-heaven following the harpazo.
The "main harvest" will reach every corner of the earth and will surpass the (approx) 2,000 year "first fruit" harvest.
The "gleanings" (harvest) will be during the Great Tribulation (last 3 1/2 years) and will be for the "poor in spirit", who will enter the Millennium.

There is not one word of Scripture to support that nonsense. To say that more are saved through the preaching of 144,000 fictious preachers than the 2000 plus years since the death of our Savior on the Cross is an insult to the LORD GOD. If I am wrong then prove it!

Furthermore, your response answers nothing. I asked:

Originally Posted by OldRegular
If the Church is gone who is going to preach the Gospel to those left behind?

 

[OldRegular]

How was Paul saved? Same-same.

The Apostle Paul was saved in the same way as everyone who is ever saved, by the Grace of God through the Work of the Holy Spirit!

If I am not mistaken you dispensationalist types also insist that the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world at the so-called Rapture.

 

[webdog]

Talk about apples and oranges, that is fruit and nuts!

Those who believe and are saved by the Gospel of Jesus Christ are a part of the Bride of Jesus Christ. You are telling me that God takes the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, out of the world to spare them from the Grrreat Tribulation but yet He leaves some of the Bride, the Church, on earth during the Grrreat Tribulation.

Ive said no such thing. You are not following along too well.

 

[webdog]

The Apostle Paul was saved in the same way as everyone who is ever saved, by the Grace of God through the Work of the Holy Spirit!

If I am not mistaken you dispensationalist types also insist that the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world at the so-called Rapture.

...yet nobody could be saved in this manner during the great tribulation. Talk about double standard.

 

[webdog]

There is not one word of Scripture to support that nonsense. To say that more are saved through the preaching of 144,000 fictious preachers than the 2000 plus years since the death of our Savior on the Cross is an insult to the LORD GOD. If I am wrong then prove it!

Furthermore, your response answers nothing. I asked:

And yet another non sequitur. Who said anything about more people being saved during the great tribulation than throughout all history combined?

 

[webdog]

19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
2 who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

What's sad is how few there are that seriously considers what's actually been written.

Hoi polloi prefers sensational speculation over what we've actually been told.

I consider what's been written just fine. I just don't consider your understanding of it.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Ive said no such thing. You are not following along too well.

Unfortunately, anti-dispensationalists have a habit of that. I'm becoming convinced they actually know what the theology teaches, they deliberately pretend they don't, and make misstatements about it. I've got theories as to why they do that, but I'll not post them here. Most of 'em I agree with on everything else. They have a burr under their saddles about dispensationalism. Oh well ...

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
The Apostle Paul was saved in the same way as everyone who is ever saved, by the Grace of God through the Work of the Holy Spirit!

If I am not mistaken you dispensationalist types also insist that the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world at the so-called Rapture.

...yet nobody could be saved in this manner during the great tribulation. Talk about double standard.

That is the point. How are people saved during the Grrreat Tribulation?

 

[OldRegular]

And yet another non sequitur. Who said anything about more people being saved during the great tribulation than throughout all history combined?

Apparently you are not following along too well!

144,000

The "main harvest" will be brought in during the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation.
We, as the "first fruits" will be safely tucked away in the third-heaven following the harpazo.
The "main harvest" will reach every corner of the earth and will surpass the (approx) 2,000 year "first fruit" harvest.
The "gleanings" (harvest) will be during the Great Tribulation (last 3 1/2 years) and will be for the "poor in spirit", who will enter the Millennium.

sur·pass [ser-pas, -pahs]
verb (used with object)
1. to go beyond in amount, extent, or degree; be greater than; exceed.

 

[OldRegular]

Unfortunately, anti-dispensationalists have a habit of that. I'm becoming convinced they actually know what the theology teaches, they deliberately pretend they don't, and make misstatements about it. I've got theories as to why they do that, but I'll not post them here. Most of 'em I agree with on everything else. They have a burr under their saddles about dispensationalism. Oh well ...

The burr under my saddle is the dispensational doctrine of the "parenthesis" church and I posted on another thread prominent dispensational theologians who proclaimed that error. Then there is the truth that dispensationalists cannot present a single verse of Scripture that teaches a "snatching" away of the Church prior to some great 7-year tribulation. Beyond that is the statements you made above implying that those of us who accept the Biblical teaching of the general resurrection and judgment are deliberately lying about dispensationalism. You are in fine company with "beameup"!

 

[beameup]

Apparently you are not following along too well!



sur·pass [ser-pas, -pahs]
verb (used with object)
1. to go beyond in amount, extent, or degree; be greater than; exceed.

I believe that there is a "slight" difference between "throughout all history" and "during the last 2,000 years".

Apparently you are not following along too well!

Here is one Epistle directed at Hebrews (ie: "Jews") and NOT "the Church"...
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:8-9
For "promise" you could substitute "covenant". A couple of thousand years is no big thing with the LORD,
to fulfill his "covenant" with the NATION of Israel. The clock is ticking... tic,tic,tic,tic,tic,tic,tic,tic.

Here is another Epistle directed at Hebrews (appropriately named "Hebrews" )...
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;
I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God,
and they shall be to me a people Hebrews 8:10

 

[OldRegular]

I believe that there is a "slight" difference between "throughout all history" and "during the last 2,000 years".

Following is your statement. I take the liberty of emphasizing your asinine claim!

Originally Posted by beameup
144,000

The "main harvest" will be brought in during the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation.
We, as the "first fruits" will be safely tucked away in the third-heaven following the harpazo.
The "main harvest" will reach every corner of the earth and will surpass the (approx) 2,000 year "first fruit" harvest.
The "gleanings" (harvest) will be during the Great Tribulation (last 3 1/2 years) and will be for the "poor in spirit", who will enter the Millennium.

Here is one Epistle directed at Hebrews (ie: "Jews") and NOT "the Church"...
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:8-9
For "promise" you could substitute "covenant". A couple of thousand years is no big thing with the LORD,
to fulfill his "covenant" with the NATION of Israel. The clock is ticking... tic,tic,tic,tic,tic,tic,tic,tic.

You are unreal beameup. The Apostle Peter is writing to the "true believers", the Church, which rules out the Hebrews {Jews}.

2 Peter 1:1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Here is another Epistle directed at Hebrews (appropriately named "Hebrews" )...
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;
I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God,
and they shall be to me a people Hebrews 8:10

Your twisting of Scripture is unsurpassed!

 

[beameup]

Your twisting of Scripture is unsurpassed!

Why don't you give us your "twist" on this scripture:

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision
was committed unto me (Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles) ,
as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Galatians 2:7

And then the Holy Spirit repeats Himself (for emphasis):
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision (ie: "Jews"),
the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) (ie: uncircumcision) Gal 2:8

 

[OldRegular]

Why don't you give us your "twist" on this scripture:

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision
was committed unto me (Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles) ,
as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Galatians 2:7

And then the Holy Spirit repeats Himself (for emphasis):
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision (ie: "Jews"),
the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) (ie: uncircumcision) Gal 2:8

There is only one Gospel and to claim otherwise is absolutely heretical just as the Apostle Paul stated. I have heard your heretical drivel before and that is exactly what it is, heretical drivel. Your hyper dispensationalism puts you in the same class as some of the cults! If you were the scholar you think you are you would know that Peter preached the Gospel to Gentiles before Paul. Philip did also!

 

[beameup]

There is only one Gospel !

Yes, of course, the gospel that Jesus preached...

And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, Matthew 4:23a

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matthew 24:14

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matthew 6:10

And, prior to that, John the Baptist...
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:15

 

[OldRegular]

Acts 28:30, 31
30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

I guss I should point out that Paul preached the same Gospel as Jesus Christ!

 

[beameup]

I guss I should point out that Paul preached the same Gospel as Jesus Christ!

Thanks for bringing up the Apostle Paul, aka: Pharisee Saul of Tarsus.

Now, getting back to the title of the original post concerning the New Covenant with Israel and Judah.
I'm sure that if his audience - referred to in Acts 28 - were at some point mostly Hebrews (ie: "Jews"),
that Paul surely would have mentioned this passage at some point in referring to the coming Kingdom:

In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David;
and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day,
that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David,
and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications:
and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son,
and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Zech 12:8-10 (and following verses).

 

[RLBosley]

Hi all. :wavey:

I haven't posted much here in months, but this thread caught my attention.

I don't understand how this is even an issue.

Even when I was a dispy I agreed that Jesus was already the mediator of the New Covenant. Strange. Is this some sort of hyper-dispensational view?

The writer of Hebrews (Paul or not is irrelevant) clearly says the New Covenant was brought in by Jesus 2000 years ago now. Hebrews 8 is very clear:

Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "SEE," He says, "THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN." But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. - Heb 8:1-6 NASB

Jesus, as our great high priest and also our sacrifice, has once for all time fulfilled the shadow of the Mosaic Law. Through his complete work he has now obtained a "more excellent ministry" which immediately correlates with his mediation of "a better covenant," based on or "enacted on better promises." The whole point here is that Jesus has complete the OT Law and has secured better everything for his people in his life death and resurrection, including a better, and new, covenant. Also notice this was already a reality in the writers day, "now He has obtained... He is also the mediator... has been enacted." All this was already in place in the writers day, he is not looking forward to this being completed millennia from when he wrote.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them, He says,

Now the distinction really becomes plain. Jesus' covenant (here, the "second" covenant) has supplanted the "first" covenant, which in this context is clearly the Mosaic Covenant. Jesus is better than Moses, and the covenant through Jesus is better than the covenant through Moses. The first covenant, with Moses, was not faultless (implying that the second covenant with Jesus is faultless!). It had problems. It couldn't secure what it pointed towards, i.e. complete forgiveness of sins.

"BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
"FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
"AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
"FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE." - Heb 8:7-12 NASB

The writer quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 in its entirety, obviously intending for the reader to draw the conclusion that the second covenant made by Jesus is in fact the prophesied New Covenant. I know some get hung up on the terms "Israel" and "Judah," but the fact is the inspired writer of scripture here intended for us to see that this second covenant made through Jesus, is the promised New Covenant. If your interpretation of the Old Testament differs from that of inspired writers, then perhaps you should reexamine how you interpret the Old Testament. We must agree with the New Testament writers, and interpret the Old how they did. The writer of Hebrews couldn't be clearer in his interpretation of Jeremiah 31.

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. - Heb 8:13 NASB

The New Covenant has been made according to the writer, and because of this the first, the Mosaic Covenant, has become obsolete, is growing old, and ready to disappear. And not ready to disappear 2,000 or 3,000 years later. Ready to disappear then, when the text was written. The Old has been done away with and the New Covenant has come in.

I personally think that this implies the whole Old Covenant system was ready to be done away with, which was completed in 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. YMMV

Also, Hebrews 9 puts the final nail in the coffin:

For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. - Heb 9:13-15 NASB

Christ has offered himself to God as a sacrifice for sin. "For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant," bringing in the redemption pictured in the Old Covenant.

:jesus:

 

[kyredneck]

....I take the liberty of emphasizing your asinine claim!....

:thumbsup: ....and doing a good job of it, keep it up brother!

....Even when I was a dispy I agreed that Jesus was already the mediator of the New Covenant. Strange. Is this some sort of hyper-dispensational view?...

Congrats on leaving the fog, I did too some 30+ years ago. And yes, I'm certain the OP would fall within the 'hyper' category.

We must agree with the New Testament writers, and interpret the Old how they did.

Amen brother!

"The new is in the old concealed, the old is in the new revealed".

When that truth is adhered to Dispensationalism fades away like as with the old covenant.

 

[OldRegular]

Thanks RLBosley for adding some light to the heat. One purpose of the Book of Hebrews is to show the superiority of the New Covenant over the Old Covenant. The Thompson Chain Reference Bible demonstrates this by the following summary:

• Better Revelation, Hebrews 1:1-4
  Better Hope, Hebrews 7:19
  Better Priesthood, Hebrews 7:20-28
  Better Covenant, Hebrews 8:6
  Better Promises, Hebrews 8:6
  Better Sacrifices, Hebrews 9:23
  Better Possessions, Hebrews 10:34
  Better Country, Hebrews 11:16
  Better Resurrection, Hebrews 11:35

Actually the superiority of the New Covenant, instituted by Jesus Christ, over the Mosaic Covenant is the emphasis of the whole of the New Testament Revelation. Yet in the face of this truth the dispensationalist would have us believe that the old system is to be reinstituted even to the resumption of animal sacrifice in a rebuilt temple. What Darby and Scofield sold as "dispensational truth" is in reality not only false doctrine but an exceedingly tragic doctrine.