The Debate over Jesus' Bodily resurrection

[Berserk]

Let me be clear: I believe in Jesus' bodily resurrection. But I want evangelicals to be well informed about what the debate is all about.

Jesus is buried nearby in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb in the same garden where He is crucified (John 19:40-42). Jesus dies before the 2 crucified thieves and none of Jesus' followers are present for the removal of these 2 thieves from their crosses. It is standard Roman practice to either bury crucified victims in a common pit or dump then in a remote field to be eaten by dogs. Skeptics of the bodily resurrection argue that this is the most reasonable explanation for the discovery of the empty tomb by the women and therefore that the bodily resurrection of Jesus' corpse is the least likely possibility. So many liberal Christian scholars believe that Jesus' disciples repeatedly saw Jesus' spirit, not His resurrected physical body. Note that modern apparitions are often accompanied by physical manifestations that create the illusion that these ghosts are physical. So what are your counter-arguments?


Liberal Christian and other secular Bible scholars challenge conservatives to confront these 9 apparent contradictions in the Gospel resurrection narrative. How would you remove these alleged contradictions?

3 APPARENT INCONSISTENCIES IN WHAT THE WOMEN ENCOUNTER AT JESUS' TOMB:
(1) No angels appear at Jesus' tomb when it is first visited by the women and then by 2 of Jesus' disciples (John 20:1-10).
(2) The women go to the tomb and are immediately greeted by one angel (Matthew 28:1-5). The "young man" in the tomb mentioned in Mark 16:5 may or may not be an angel. Is he the "young man" in 14:51-52?
(3) The women go to the tomb and are greeted by 2 angels, not 1 (Luke 24:4)

3 APPARENT INCONSISTENCIES IN WHAT THE WOMEN TELL THE DISCIPLES THEY SAW AT THE TOMB:
(4) Mary Magdalene tells 2 disciples she found the tomb empty, but doesn't claim to have seen Jesus or angels (John 20:1-2).
(5) The women tell the disciples that they have seen Jesus (John 20:18; Matthew 28:8-10).
(6) The women tell the disciples that they have seen angels, but don't mention seeing Jesus (Luke 24:23).

3 APPARENT INCONSISTENCIES ABOUT WHERE JESUS' FOLLOWERS ARE TOLD TO GO NEXT:
(7) The women at the tomb are told to send the disciples to Galilee, but say nothing to anyone (Mark 16:8--Mark's original ending).
(8) The women at the tomb go and share the instruction to go to Galilee for a resurrection appearance (Matthew 28:7-8).
(9) On the day the tomb is discovered empty, the disciples are instead told not to leave Jerusalem (Luke 24:49).

 

[Two Wings]

Jesus' own words.

John 2:19

the liberal Christian is an oxymoron to me. I don't mean to be mean, but I have to question whether the person who would pursue this sort of theology actually has their spirit breathed back to life. I'm not all that and a bag of chips ... probably among the least intellectual of those I see regularly posting ...

But to question the resurrection is to call Jesus a liar. If you're gonna do THAT, you reject Jesus as Messiah ... and then ... well ... you know.

Great post!

 

[Berserk]

Your bias prompts you to duck the detailed case progressive Christian scholars make that the Romans removed Jesus' corpse when they took down the corpses of the 2 crucified thieves and buried them with Jesus. They would challenge you to set aside your bias and actually address their specified detailed arguments. Can you actually do that? Remember, they believe Jesus' ghost actually appeared to His disciples.

 

[Two Wings]

Your bias prompts you to duck the detailed case progressive Christian scholars make that the Romans removed Jesus' corpse when they took down the corpses of the 2 crucified thieves and buried them with Jesus. They would challenge you to set aside your bias and actually address their specified detailed arguments. Can you actually do that? Remember, they believe Jesus' ghost actually appeared to His disciples.

???

you posed the argument for those who disbelieve Jesus.

Jesus Himself said He'd be raised-up on the 3rd day. Now one can try to spin around that 9 ways from Sunday, but to public school educated me, that means what it says ... "I will be resurrected on the 3rd day" that doesn't mean "I'm a gonna float around as a paranormal/quasi visible spirit Ghostbuster premonition.

What one person said to another about the phase of the moon, or the color of their sandals, or whatever ... irrelevant. A pitiful strawman argument which apparently has but one purpose ... exaltation of the intellectual self rather than running to the One who loves you and gave Himself up for you.

If we're not gonna believe Jesus' own words then the rest of it is academic at best and reveals a desire to be victorious in an argument rather than gaining knowledge of God and most importantly, a personal relationship with Him.

If you are presenting this "for a friend," then have that friend believe the words of Jesus Christ ...

Press on.

 

[Berserk]

???

you posed the argument for those who disbelieve Jesus.

Jesus Himself said He'd be raised-up on the 3rd day. Now one can try to spin around that 9 ways from Sunday, but to public school educated me, that means what it says ... "I will be resurrected on the 3rd day" that doesn't mean "I'm a gonna float around as a paranormal/quasi visible spirit Ghostbuster premonition.

What one person said to another about the phase of the moon, or the color of their sandals, or whatever ... irrelevant. A pitiful strawman argument which apparently has but one purpose ... exaltation of the intellectual self rather than running to the One who loves you and gave Himself up for you.

If we're not gonna believe Jesus' own words then the rest of it is academic at best and reveals a desire to be victorious in an argument rather than gaining knowledge of God and most importantly, a personal relationship with Him.

If you are presenting this "for a friend," then have that friend believe the words of Jesus Christ ...

Press on.

Jesus never actually claims that His corpse will be raised on the 3rd day. But even if He did, the OP's evidence must be confronted, something you are clearly unable to do. You duck the progressives' possibility that His spirit came alive and appeared to disciples on the 3rd day.

 

[Two Wings]

Jesus never actually claims that His corpse will be raised on the 3rd day. But even if He did, the OP's evidence must be confronted, something you are clearly unable to do. You duck the progressives' possibility that His spirit came alive and appeared to disciples on the 3rd day.

I've never claimed to be an intellectual wizard. I'm sorry I'm so insufficient as to address your strawman to your liking.

The OP was a reasonable situational setup. Your follow up challenges seem less than sincere.

I'm not ducking it ... I'm disregarding it because it has no truth in it. It has a (intentional) misleading ... and once we abide in saying Jesus lied, then none of the rest matters much.

Ez 43 describes The Son walking past the High Priest showing Him His nail scarred hands. Is that just more illusion?

 

[Berserk]

Duh, Ezekiel 43 makes no reference to Jesus' "nail-scarred hands."

 

[Revmitchell]

The “counter argument” is that the tomb Jesus was buried in was a private tomb. It was privately owned. The bodies of the other two would not have been buried in a private tomb as the owner of that tomb would have had to give permission. Their bodies would have been thrown outside the city in Gehenna as was the custom for those crucified.

Had Jesus been buried with the others that information would likely have been part of the gospels and in fact would have been out of the norm .
This progressive argument is not only weak but unnecessary. His bodily resurrection is no more a miracle than His “ghost” showing up. God who created all, sustains all, sent Jesus via Mary, can also bodily rise with no less problem.

iit seems to be an solution looking for a place to land.

 

[Two Wings]

Duh, Ezekiel 43 makes no reference to Jesus' "nail-scarred hands."

sigh. I really am obtuse to be so inept in description, thought, and analysis. My sincerest apologies and thank you for tolerating my illiterate rumblings.

Unless you hold to this idea about which I've just learned here on this BB which says all prophesy was fulfilled in 70AD, you understand EZ 43 is describing the 3rd Temple (EZ42 separated by a 300reed wall from the profane thing (dome of the rock)) and the Triune God, the Creator and Sustainer of it all ... inhabits this structure on the precedent of the Tabernacle in the wilderness. This is AFTER the birth of Jesus ... AFTER His crucifixion ... and AFTER His resurrection. as of 2021, it's yet to happen, but EZ was given a "ride to the future" similar to John's.

So, The Son, with His nail-scarred hands, will walk past the high priest to enter the Holy of Holies.

This will be prior to antichrist's desecration and false claim of being God. IDK how much prior ... but I digress with my psychotic exclamation. Again, sorry.

Consider for yourself whether it be wisdom or folly to accept a premise in falsehood as a basis for deeper discussion. If we know by faith the Word of God is true ... that It is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17)

The Word of God declares Jesus' bodily resurrection. For one who would seek a restored relationship with Him, because of Him, it is sufficient.

 

[Marooncat79]

1. I was a liberals liberal at one time

2. You cannot deny anything substantive regarding the Xian religion and legitimately call yourself a Xian

3. The resurrection is the penultimate of human history. Nothing else comes close. Hence if you deny the resurrection. You are not a true believer

4. Being a Christian means that you believe certain things about it. Reading the Apostles Creed is a good start

5. Jesus’s spirit or ghost did not appear. It was Jesus Himself in His resurrected body. He proclaimed that he could raise it up Himself in the NT

6. For Christianity to fail, all that anyone needed to do was to produce the body of Christ at any time in the first few years after His death. This would by necessity destroy NT Christianity.

7. The believers in Jerusalem did not control the body of Jesus, the Roman Army did. Well, except when Jesus was resurrected

8. The guard at the tomb was terrified about it because they realized they would be killed by the Roman Leadership if they let anyone come and steal the body of Jesus. Read the Gospel Account

9. Please read I Corinthians 15:1-8. Over 640 people claim to have seen the resurrected Jesus after His death

hmmm

 

[Two Wings]

... I'm going to again reference John 2.

The pharisees thought He meant the stone building, too ... but the very verse (19) I offered previously tells that Jesus meant His own body.

and from that ... the passage continues ... this is how the Disciples believed and understood..

 

[Marooncat79]

Let me be clear: I believe in Jesus' bodily resurrection. But I want evangelicals to be well informed about what the debate is all about.

Jesus is buried nearby in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb in the same garden where He is crucified (John 19:40-42). Jesus dies before the 2 crucified thieves and none of Jesus' followers are present for the removal of these 2 thieves from their crosses. It is standard Roman practice to either bury crucified victims in a common pit or dump then in a remote field to be eaten by dogs. Skeptics of the bodily resurrection argue that this is the most reasonable explanation for the discovery of the empty tomb by the women and therefore that the bodily resurrection of Jesus' corpse is the least likely possibility.

Why were the women worried about burial spices? Doesn’t the text say that there was over 100 lbs? Yes it does

So many liberal Christian scholars believe that Jesus' disciples repeatedly saw Jesus' spirit, not His resurrected physical body. Note that modern apparitions are often accompanied by physical manifestations that create the illusion that these ghosts are physical. So what are your counter-arguments?

see below in next response

Liberal Christian and other secular Bible scholars challenge conservatives to confront these 9 apparent contradictions in the Gospel resurrection narrative. How would you remove these alleged contradictions?

3 APPARENT INCONSISTENCIES IN WHAT THE WOMEN ENCOUNTER AT JESUS' TOMB:
(1) No angels appear at Jesus' tomb when it is first visited by the women and then by 2 of Jesus' disciples (John 20:1-10).

so? They were different visits

(2) The women go to the tomb and are immediately greeted by one angel (Matthew 28:1-5). The "young man" in the tomb mentioned in Mark 16:5 may or may not be an angel. Is he the "young man" in 14:51-52?
(3) The women go to the tomb and are greeted by 2 angels, not 1 (Luke 24:4)

see previous response

3 APPARENT INCONSISTENCIES IN WHAT THE WOMEN TELL THE DISCIPLES THEY SAW AT THE TOMB:
(4) Mary Magdalene tells 2 disciples she found the tomb empty, but doesn't claim to have seen Jesus or angels (John 20:1-2).

so, he was not there! Maybe on the road to Emmaus?

(5) The women tell the disciples that they have seen Jesus (John 20:18; Matthew 28:8-10).
(6) The women tell the disciples that they have seen angels, but don't mention seeing Jesus (Luke 24:23).

3 APPARENT INCONSISTENCIES ABOUT WHERE JESUS' FOLLOWERS ARE TOLD TO GO NEXT:
(7) The women at the tomb are told to send the disciples to Galilee, but say nothing to anyone (Mark 16:8--Mark's original ending).

again, the ending of Mark just does not report it. It means nothing

(8) The women at the tomb go and share the instruction to go to Galilee for a resurrection appearance (Matthew 28:7-8).

ok so?

(9) On the day the tomb is discovered empty, the disciples are instead told not to leave Jerusalem (Luke 24:49).

do not leave permenantly hang around.

 

[Two Wings]

do not leave permenantly hang around.

huh?

did I get blocked in 4 posts? I see no post where Beserk says he's punching outta BB.

 

[Marooncat79]

For those confused

please get a good Harmony of the Gospels and read it

it will answer all of these questions

AT Robertson
L Boettner

 

[Revmitchell]

Let me be clear: I believe in Jesus' bodily resurrection. But I want evangelicals to be well informed about what the debate is all about.

Jesus is buried nearby in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb in the same garden where He is crucified (John 19:40-42). Jesus dies before the 2 crucified thieves and none of Jesus' followers are present for the removal of these 2 thieves from their crosses. It is standard Roman practice to either bury crucified victims in a common pit or dump then in a remote field to be eaten by dogs. Skeptics of the bodily resurrection argue that this is the most reasonable explanation for the discovery of the empty tomb by the women and therefore that the bodily resurrection of Jesus' corpse is the least likely possibility. So many liberal Christian scholars believe that Jesus' disciples repeatedly saw Jesus' spirit, not His resurrected physical body. Note that modern apparitions are often accompanied by physical manifestations that create the illusion that these ghosts are physical. So what are your counter-arguments?


Liberal Christian and other secular Bible scholars challenge conservatives to confront these 9 apparent contradictions in the Gospel resurrection narrative. How would you remove these alleged contradictions?

3 APPARENT INCONSISTENCIES IN WHAT THE WOMEN ENCOUNTER AT JESUS' TOMB:
(1) No angels appear at Jesus' tomb when it is first visited by the women and then by 2 of Jesus' disciples (John 20:1-10).
(2) The women go to the tomb and are immediately greeted by one angel (Matthew 28:1-5). The "young man" in the tomb mentioned in Mark 16:5 may or may not be an angel. Is he the "young man" in 14:51-52?
(3) The women go to the tomb and are greeted by 2 angels, not 1 (Luke 24:4)

3 APPARENT INCONSISTENCIES IN WHAT THE WOMEN TELL THE DISCIPLES THEY SAW AT THE TOMB:
(4) Mary Magdalene tells 2 disciples she found the tomb empty, but doesn't claim to have seen Jesus or angels (John 20:1-2).
(5) The women tell the disciples that they have seen Jesus (John 20:18; Matthew 28:8-10).
(6) The women tell the disciples that they have seen angels, but don't mention seeing Jesus (Luke 24:23).

3 APPARENT INCONSISTENCIES ABOUT WHERE JESUS' FOLLOWERS ARE TOLD TO GO NEXT:
(7) The women at the tomb are told to send the disciples to Galilee, but say nothing to anyone (Mark 16:8--Mark's original ending).
(8) The women at the tomb go and share the instruction to go to Galilee for a resurrection appearance (Matthew 28:7-8).
(9) On the day the tomb is discovered empty, the disciples are instead told not to leave Jerusalem (Luke 24:49).

so you actually believe there are inconsistencies in scripture?

 

[Marooncat79]

There are also newer ones

 

[Marooncat79]

No man.
Sorry

I meant for you to read more posts

as in don’t leave

huh?

did I get blocked in 4 posts? I see no post where Beserk says he's punching outta BB.

 

[Marooncat79]

Wh

Your bias prompts you to duck the detailed case progressive Christian scholars make that the Romans removed Jesus' corpse when they took down the corpses of the 2 crucified thieves and buried them with Jesus. They would challenge you to set aside your bias and actually address their specified detailed arguments. Can you actually do that? Remember, they believe Jesus' ghost actually appeared to His disciples.

Where does it say that?

remember Joseph went and asked for the body!

maybe he was aware of the usual happenings and asked for that very reason

just because it was custom, does not mean it was 100%. Think of normal.

 

[Marooncat79]

Ask them, why don’t they put down their bias and read good Xian material instead of apostate

Tell them if they really want to learn, shouldn’t they examine all angles of an argument?

I would think so

 

[Marooncat79]

Jesus never actually claims that His corpse will be raised on the 3rd day. But even if He did, the OP's evidence must be confronted, something you are clearly unable to do. You duck the progressives' possibility that His spirit came alive and appeared to disciples on the 3rd day.

Jesus told Thomas to touch him

Jesus ate fish with the disciples

can you physically touch a ghost? No

can a ghost sit around a fire and physically eat like Jesus did w the disciples? No