I don't want to derail the discussion ... but I do not see any Beserk posts after #7. Seems like he's responding to you.
I could be all fouled up. Beserk seems to think so. Maybe he's right.
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The Debate over Jesus' Bodily resurrection
- Thread starter Berserk
- Start date
I could be all fouled up. Beserk seems to think so. Maybe he's right.
LOL ... naw bro, we're good.
I'm sure the shortcoming is mine. It just seemed to me like you were responding to subsequent posts by the OP which I wasn't seeing, so I assumed since there was a bit of gnarly from Beserk's responses to mine before you engaged, I guessed I'd been blocked/ignored/whatever.
So ... to retrack. I think your posts on Jesus' bodily resurrection are right on! His glorified body is a model for what those of us who have placed our faith & trust in Him will be duplicating soon.
Jesus could have done that alleged space ghost thing, but He didn't. He did precisely as The Word said He'd do.
I liked your comment which bases Christianity upon the resurrection. If Christ wasn't resurrected, then Christianity is a farce ...
Folks whom the OP describes (and possibly himself given the responses) start with the latter point and try to build a case against the Resurrection. OP isn't the first, and certainly won't be the last as we get closer to Jesus' fulfilling the prophesy of His Return.
As my OP points out, Progressives anticipate and refute your claims here. (1) For example, a doctor interviewed on "Coast to Coast'" reports a dying patient enveloped by a light who cupped her hand, beckoning the doctor to draw near. She opened her hand, exposing an etherial 4-leaf clover, saying it was a gift from a discarnate relative who had arrived to take her "home." The doctor kept this etherial 4-leaf clover in a a glass jar and watched it slowly dematerialize over 2 weeks! (2) A Presbyterian minister, Dr. Howell Vincent, witnessed his deceased wife return from the dead and walk around among family members, conversing with them. She gave them a calendula, flower which the family pressed and put in an album. Dr. Vincent wrote aobout this afterlife encounter in his book "Lighthed Passage." (3) Most impressively, a UMC parishioner of mine, Leonard lost his son Jeff, his son's wife Karen and their 2 children in a small plane crash. Jeff came back from the dead to drive his Dad around in his old pick-up. Jeff reassured Leonard that he and his family were together and OK and even outlined his investment to help Leonard tie up loose ends after funeral. This is the most supernatural experience I've ever encountered. I knew Leonard well and there is much more to his after-death encounter with his son and his son's wife, which I will recounter later.
BTW, I have 2 Gospel parallel books, one in E
The point is that no physical resurrection was involved in any of these physical verifications of after-death encounters. So in itself, Jesus' physical manifestations do not prove his corpse is not buried with those of the other 2 thieves.
I have 2 Gospel parallel books, one in Greek and the other in English. Progressives take the use of such resources for granted. You need to actually show how using such resources enables you to explain away the OP's 9 contradictions.
Man look
this stuff has been rehashed for decades
if you want to understand the events of the resurrection clearly then get the right reading materials ie A Harmony of the Gospels by K Easley is good. Btw, he was my NT professor and just passed about 3 yrs ago
all that stuff about near death is hogwash.
Hebrews says “it’s appointed once to die and after that the judgement”. When we die that’s it. There is no coming back.
you are not mostly dead but really dead. Kaput
Again, it’s the authority of Scripture at stake
people like D Piper should be ashamed to call themselves Ministers of the Gospel and mislead others while at the same time affirming the truth of Scripture
BTW, I did a several hundred word paper on His supposed 90 minutes in Heaven and the entire book was very uninspiring in fact I called it a fraud
Let God be true and every man a liar. I believe there is a Bible verse there!
grace and peace to you
this stuff has been rehashed for decades
if you want to understand the events of the resurrection clearly then get the right reading materials ie A Harmony of the Gospels by K Easley is good. Btw, he was my NT professor and just passed about 3 yrs ago
all that stuff about near death is hogwash.
Hebrews says “it’s appointed once to die and after that the judgement”. When we die that’s it. There is no coming back.
you are not mostly dead but really dead. Kaput
Again, it’s the authority of Scripture at stake
people like D Piper should be ashamed to call themselves Ministers of the Gospel and mislead others while at the same time affirming the truth of Scripture
BTW, I did a several hundred word paper on His supposed 90 minutes in Heaven and the entire book was very uninspiring in fact I called it a fraud
Let God be true and every man a liar. I believe there is a Bible verse there!
grace and peace to you
Coast to Coast? Really?
please tell me that we have not stopped so low that we go there to develop and understand a Biblical Theology!
come on now, that’s laughable
"Inconsistencies" might be the result of flawed interpretation.
Let us consider item one (1) above.
In John 20:1-10 no mention of angels. Does that mean angels did not appear to other visitors? Nope.
Does Matthew 28:1-5 say an angel appeared to Mary Magdalene. Nope. Had the stone been rolled away before the women got there? Yes, so the account is consistent with John 20. And did the angel address every one of the women? Nope, so if the angel addressed the other women in the group, rather than Mary Magdalene, the accounts mesh. Bottom line, when Mary Magdalene "first" visited the tomb, with the other women, she did not see any angels. In Mark 16:5, the "fhey" could refer to the other women and not to MM, so whether the "young man" was an angel or not, she did not learn the whereabouts of Jesus from him. As far as Luke 24:4, the perplexed women who had entered the tomb, reported seeing two men standing, rather than one young man sitting. Perhaps one of the women reported to Mark her observation of one sitting, while another reported to Luke of two standing. Nothing to write home about...
Just to be crystal clear
there are also Non-Christians who write about the resurrection in the 1st and 2nd centuries, and how the Church not only believed it, but also preached it as if to dare anyone to doubt it
it was a focal point of preaching in the NT. Example: Paul’s Sermon in Acts 17, I Cor 15; and on and on and on in the NT
notice- Non Christians ie Non-Believers
the resurrection is not some novel whipped up idea
people who doubt it, do themselves a great disfavor ie the Bible says that they will suffer a literal hell- as in real, not fake, where the fire is never quenched and the worm dieth not!!
burning forever and ever, sulphur and everything
yes that bad. Horrible eternity
with no hope
there are also Non-Christians who write about the resurrection in the 1st and 2nd centuries, and how the Church not only believed it, but also preached it as if to dare anyone to doubt it
it was a focal point of preaching in the NT. Example: Paul’s Sermon in Acts 17, I Cor 15; and on and on and on in the NT
notice- Non Christians ie Non-Believers
the resurrection is not some novel whipped up idea
people who doubt it, do themselves a great disfavor ie the Bible says that they will suffer a literal hell- as in real, not fake, where the fire is never quenched and the worm dieth not!!
burning forever and ever, sulphur and everything
yes that bad. Horrible eternity
with no hope
There have also been many unbeliever who have investigated the integrity of Scripture and found it incredibly solid and we’re converted from foolishness to true Christian faith
Laughter is the last resort of the decisively refuted! Of course, you also ignore the other 2 cases, which are merely some of the many examples that might be adduced. Kindly season your penchant for bluster with a modicum of intellectual rigor and try to show how the 9 inconsistencies cited by progressives do not call the historicity of the Gospel resurrection narratives into question and, with that, the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. This is a debate forum and so far responses are confirming my prior experiences that -evangelicals will say practically anything to avoid the hard work of critical engagement with the crucial issues.
Why isn't it more plausible to suppose that the Romans follow their standard procedure of waiting till all 3 crucified victims die and then gathering the corpses of Jesus and the 2 thieves into a cart to be taken to the standard pit for dumping crucified corpses? No disciple is present to say otherwise after observing Jesus' provisional and, progressives argue, temporary burial to avoid offending Jewish Sabbath purity sensibilities.
There is nothing to affirm your position hence nothing to deny
the Biblical text is historical at that point giving direct testimony to the events as they happened
BTW, I am at work, and I really need to jump out at this point
as per your accusations about my scholarship or lack thereof, I have pointed you to the Biblical Text and to reading material which may assist with better understanding. I did not however, embrace, recommend nor allude to Coast to Coast
good day
grace and peace
Romans 5:1
the Biblical text is historical at that point giving direct testimony to the events as they happened
BTW, I am at work, and I really need to jump out at this point
as per your accusations about my scholarship or lack thereof, I have pointed you to the Biblical Text and to reading material which may assist with better understanding. I did not however, embrace, recommend nor allude to Coast to Coast
good day
grace and peace
Romans 5:1
Boy I’ll tell ya someone is full of themselves likely not to last long around here
Where does the following fit?
a prophet, therefore, being, and knowing that with an oath God did swear to him, out of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, to raise up the Christ, to sit upon his throne, “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. Acts 2:30,31
To be understood relative to; Acts 13:34 “And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus:‘I will give you the sure mercies of David.’[fn] - and - Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
Also I believe the following should be considered.
Acts 2:31 spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption ------ Considering the word, nor. Doesn't that imply the resurrection to be a combination of things?
Do we see the same in the, "resurrection," chapter? 1 Cor 15:35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?”
Soul in body?
The OIP provides 9 historical inconsistencies that progressives offer to refute your mindless pontification that "the Biblical text is historical." If you are capable of honest critical reflection, you must try to demonstrate on a case by case basis how these contradictions can be reconciled in a credible sequence of events. I have a well-educated progressive Christian friend who walked down the aisle to surrender his life to Christ, but once exposed to such inconsistencies, felt obliged to reject the Gospel resurrection narratives as lacking credibility. Posters who advocate biblical inerrancy must have the integrity to respond to such alleged contradictions with more than doctrinal fiat and bluster.
For one, it is impossible to be a Christian and deny the bodily resurrection of Christ and the future bodily resurrection of the believer. Paul places the doctrine of a bodily resurrection central to our faith.
What Jesus body was like, however (and what ours will be) we know very little. We know His resurrected body had a physical presence (not a spirit or ghost). And we know this is a spiritual body as opposed to a mortal body.
That's about all we can say. However His body is such will be ours.
Jesus Himself address them as not being a ghost, but glorified flesh and blood!
Posters have missed the point: If the contradictions outlined in the OP are not satisfactorily rebutted, then the whole Gospel testimony to Jesus' resurrection is unreliable. So defenders of the faith must demonstrate how the apparent inconsistencies can be resolved. And no one here seems to be up to this challenge. So sad! And remember, I said from the outset that I personally accept Jesus' bodily resurrection. I just wanted to see if this site's evangelicals are as apologetically inept as evangelicals on other sites. I'm afraid they are.
Who are you? Why should we be concerned with your judgment on this? It takes a lot of arrogance to show up to a site where you know no one and question this. Ultimately you have not made the case why your judgement is to be of concern. The op is sophomoric at best. It certainly hasn’t proven any inconsistencies only unsubstantiated claims.
I am going to say this straight forward and it is def going to come across as unloving and uncaring. For that I ask for your forgiveness
1. Progressives = Marxists
2. I do not care about their theology other than they are misleading millions ensuring their eternal doom
3. I am much too busy to address all of this. I would have to go back and spend 3-4 hours You say you seem to care then do something about it. I have given you the titles of books w Authors. Go to Amazon or abebook.com
4. I told you at the beginning that I have not always been a believer. Those from my hometown still do not believe that I am a believer and I was converted to Christ in 1983 (baptized in Wms AZ while a member of Grand Canyon Baptist).
5. Again, I do not have time for foolishness. I get up between 3:45 and 4:30 every morning, work a 50 hr job, drive one hour both ways. I usually go to bed around 9 pm. After having contacted the mission pastors and are typically in contact with them from about 4:15 am til 7 am when I walk into work.
I also have a men’s Bible Study which I thoroughly enjoy! We are starting Men Called by God by James M Boice. It’s a study of the lives of Abraham, Moses and David. I would suggest it to you and everyone in here!
then there is normal Bible Study for me and did I mention that I love football? Yes, there are really only 2 seasons. Football and depression due to no football. Just kidding though sometimes I am sure that I place too much emphasis on it in my personal life
I am also involved in international ministries which are much more important to me than someone wanting to stir up endless bantering with someone I do not know. If you were Salty, or Mitchell, it would be different. They would have legitimate questions and teachable concerning the things of God.
there are a couple of people on here who seem to enjoy constant bantering w those who only want to stir up strife
I would suggest a few other books for you
the Collapse of Evolution by Scott Huse
Bitesize Theology
Systematic Theology James P Boyce
the Crossway Series of Seeing Jesus in John, Matthew, Genesis and Psalms. It’s part of an Exposition series
any work by AW Pink
maybe your “friends” would benefit from some of these works?
again, grace and peace to you.
you have been challenged to look for yourself
have a great day
Romans 5:1