The Decline of the Sabbath

Doctrinal Ignorance

Doctrinal ignorance is what results in people publishing articles claiming there is a "decline in the sabbath". I have no idea what faith or training Hemingway claims to have or Mr. Ringwald to whom she refers as wanting to "see the Sabbath restored to one track--if not a strictly religious one" but in any case anyone promoting the bringing back of the sabbath is doctrinally ignorant, sincere or not.

 

Heb 4 - "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worsihp" (speaking of the New heavens and New earth)

Mark 2:27-28 "The SABBATH was MADE for MANKIND not mankind MADE for the Sabbath -- the Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath".

Exodus 20:8-11 "REMEMBER the Sabbath day to KEEP IT Holy... For in SIX DAYS the LORD MADE the heavens and the earth and all that is in them and RESTED the Seventh day therefore the Lord BLESSED it".


Genesis 2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed[/b], and all their hosts.
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.[/b]

Now let's point out just where D.L. Moody agrees fully with these texts

in Christ,

Bob

 

D.L Moody's words -- not mine.

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

Fundamental Baptist Institute
http://www.fbinstitute.com/

presents

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY​

The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17 ​

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The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy[/b]. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [b]for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.[/b]​

​

​

THERE HAS BEEN an [b]awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day[/b], and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

[b]I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, [b]He did nothing to set it aside[/b]; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.

.
HOW TBSERVE THE SABBATH​

"Sabbath" means "rest," and the meaning of the word gives a hint as to the true way to observe the day. God rested after creation, and ordained the Sabbath as a rest for man. He blessed it and hallowed it. Remember the rest-day to keep it holy.[/b]
[/quote]
…





[b]Mr. Gladstone recently told a friend that the secret of his long life is that amid all the pressure of public cares he never forgot the Sabbath, with its rest for the body and the soul.
·
When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday,
…
Make the Sabbath a day of religious activity. First of all, of course, is attendance at public worship. "There is a discrepancy," says John McNeill, "between our creed about the Sabbath day and our actual conduct. In many families, at ten o'clock on the Sabbath, attendance at church is still an open question. There is no open question on Monday morning- 'John, will you go to work today.'"

…
Someone has said that without the Sabbath, the Church of Christ could not, as a visible organization, exist on earth.
…
Parents, if you want your children to grow up and honor you, have them honor the Sabbath day.

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SABBATH DESECRATION​

Men seem to think they have a right to change the holy day into a holiday. The young have more temptations to break the Sabbath than we had forty years ago.[/b]

 

One last comment from Moody - that could not be included above --

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PUNISHMENT OR BLESSING?​

No nation has ever prospered that has trampled the Sabbath in the dust. Show me a nation that has done this and I will show you a nation that has got in it the seeds of ruin and decay. I believe that Sabbath desecration will carry a nation down quicker than anything else. Adam brought marriage and the Sabbath with him out of Eden, and neither can be disregarded without suffering. When the children of Israel went into the Promised Land, God told them to let their land rest every seven years, and He would give them as much in six years as in seven. For four hundred and ninety years they disregarded that law. But mark you, Nebuchadnezzar came and took them off into Babylon, and kept them seventy years in captivity, and the land had its seventy sabbaths of rest. Seven times seventy is four hundred and ninety. So they did not gain much by breaking this law. You can give God His day, or He will take it.

On the other hand, honoring the fourth commandment brings blessing:
"If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on My holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." (Isaiah 58:13-14)
…

? Hasn't the time come to call a halt if men want power with God? Let men call you narrow and bigoted, but be man enough to stand by God's law, and you will have power and blessing. That is the kind of Christianity we want just now in this country. [/b]Any man can go with the crowd, but we want men who will go against the current.

Sabbath-breaker, are you ready to step into the scales?

 

Oh, so now you add the word "highly esteem" to the text. More additions to tht text, and anything but let it speak as it is written. So you have no way to show that it is "higly esteem ALL days", from any "list", either. You have to keep adding more and more to the text, to get it to say this. To "ESTEEM ALL DAYS [alike]" does mean to ignore any special days. Because they are "esteemed" the same as any other day. Unless the person observes all 365 days of the year, that is the only way he could "esteem all days [alike] and still be keeping them.

Also, while many people may look up to Moody as a good leader of the past, we do not follow him, and I have never really read or had much to do with him, so his reasoning for the Sabbath, which he held as Sunday, does not prove anything to me. (So if you want me to follow Moody, then do you want me to start keeping Sunday as the Sabbath?)

 

Indeed "esteem " as in "higly value or prefer" one man "judges/values/esteems one above the other" while another esteems them ALL -- and you have taken it upon yourself to try and prove that to esteem ONE is to OBSERVE the ONE but to esteem ALL is to "observe NONE".

Your's is an uphill road. Swimming against the current of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Is this the part where you claim to actually have "read" Moody's sermon??

in Christ,

Bob

 

DL MOODY

Are you saying that D.L Moody claimed that the Jews kept Sunday?

 

The mistake you're making here is to assume that the word "esteem" always carries the meaning of "esteem HIGHLY". In our modern usage, when we say something like "an esteemed member of the group", it does; but in the biblical usage, it simply means "reckon", which conveys a NEUTRAL sense. Something can be "esteemed" high, or it can be esteemed LOW, or it can even be esteemed AVERAGE. That is the sense we see in this passage. Some people esteem all days as average, and some esteem some days as special, and thus "above" others. Don't read modern English parlance into the text.

No, he believed that Sunday superseded Saturday as "the sabbath", and thus applied the commandment to it.
The question is, are you saying that Moody taught Christians to keep Saturday? For you know good and well better than that, and you used to acknowledge that, but still figure you could use his points regardless (which was already a desperate measure on your part to begin with!)
Isn't the whole point of the SDA's message that the Sunday "sabbath" is false, antiscriptural, and from paganism? So then why do you quote from someone who believed in it? If he's wrong on which day it is, then maybe his entire exposition of scripture on that issue is wrong.

 

GE:

You are talking shear nonsense. You may sound 'logical' saying, "to esteem ALL is to "observe NONE"", but you are simply obstinately blinding yourself for plain common sense. To esteem all means and says what it says. Only if talking about certain 'all days', can one esteem them all, or only some of them above the others -- like in the case of the Passover.

 

GE:

Not 'Doctrinal ignorance ', but total disregard for the New Testament SCRIPTURES you must know well enough to make such statement as "promoting the bringing back of the sabbath is doctrinally ignorant, sincere or not"! You are not ignorant obviously, but cincerely an enthusiastic antagonist of something you utterly resent.

Your opinion or better, feeling, is worth zultsch. Unless you're willing to accept the Scriptures for ONLY authority in 'doctrinal' matters, I cannot see how you find it worth while at all for yourself to participate on this Board.
Do you believe the Church? Do you believe worship and proclamation -- of the Gospel of Christ I mean? Then tell me how you so easily discard of the Sabbath Day?

 

GE:

Bob, this would have been an excellent reply to mrM's post 121, but then you spoil it all with your rotten Moody story! 'Why spoil a good story' with an untruth, this time?

 

Why I believe the Sabbath -- for what it may be worth to whomever even if no one whosoever!

I believe the Sabbath, Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD you God, Lord's Day - which is, Christ's Day, Day of His Triumph through Resurrection from the dead - and therefore I believe "a keeping of the Sabbath Day remaining for the People of God" : "THEREFORE, do not you (Body of Christ's Own) let yourselves be judged and condemned by any (of the world and its powers or wisdom) with regard to Feasting of Sabbath's Feast!"

 

No reputable Bible commentary takes the context for "Krino" the term for "REGARD" "Esteem" in Rom 14 as meaning "DISREGARDS" in the way you have speculated. Your twist on this is "one man regards one day ABOVE another while another DISREGARDS all the days" in the list.


Hint that is not because all Bible scholars and commentaries are "SDAs".

Your argument has failed every time on this point.



Adam Clark’s commentary

Chapter 14
In things indifferent, Christians should not condemn each other, 1. Particularly with respect to different kinds of food, 2-4. And the observation of certain days, 5,6. None of us should live unto himself, but unto Christ, who lived and died for us, 7-9. We must not judge each other; for all judgment belongs to God,

Verse 5. One man esteemeth one day above another
Perhaps the word ημεραν, day, is here taken for time, festival, and such like, in which sense it is frequently used. Reference is made here to the Jewish institutions, and especially their festivals; such as the passover, pentecost, feast of tabernacles, new moons, jubilee, Jew still thought these of moral obligation;.
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=014

[/quote]

JFB
http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=014

5. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day--The supplement "alike" should be omitted, as injuring the sense.
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind--be guided in such matters by conscientious conviction.

Rom 14
6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

Notice there is no "HE who does not observe a day - is not doing so For the Lord".

And the term “Observe” is used to show “in accord with the command of God”. In Matt 28:20 Christ the Creator tells His followers to “Go into all the World and make disciples of ALL nations…teaching them to Observe All that I Commanded you”.

Some will argue that to value and “esteem” one day above another in vs 5 – results in OBSERVING the day in vs 6. But to Value and Esteem ALL days (of the Lev 23 list) results in OBSERVING NONE!


Krino in vs 5 shows a selection or preference "to approve, esteem, to prefer " to OBSERVE ("Preference to OBSERVE") as we can see in vs 6. IT is ALL the same chapter the same letter the same author the same subject. Some people have tried to splice, mince and parse these verses apart when in fact they go together IN Context.

Vs 5 "One esteems one day ABOVE another while another esteems ALL" vs 6 "SO The one who OBSERVES the day OBSERVES it for the Lord"!!

We can not split these verses into separate topics. It is all one point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The arguments D.L. Moody makes are 100% opposed to every objection you have raised against Christ the Creator's memorial of HIS creative act in Gen 1-2:3.

The point remains.

The argument I have made regarding the 4th commandment that you DO agree with is that the commandment "is not editable" -- that seems like an odd place for you to object.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You're still twisting the meaning of words, and refusing to get the point.
I never said "krino"="disregard". Krino is a NEUTRAL action, where one DECIDES or CHOOSEs (other meanings of the word) the value of something.

And I see right here where you have pulled the switcheroo on me. "Regard" is the word the KJV translated "phroneo" (observe) as; NOT krino! (Caught that one just in time!). So v. 6 tells us that some DO "disregard" (phroneo me) days, showing clearly that not everything that is "esteemed" is "observed".

These do not contradict anything I said. "Observation of certain days", "Jewish institutions, and especially [i.e. not only] their festivals". Is this not this what I have been talking about? However, it says nothing about your "list" of three out of seven annual days ONLY. Just reading these commentaries, we get the sense that the issue is people keeping Jewish institutions or not keeping them, and judging each other. That supports my argument, not your attempt to redirect it to certain days exclusively.

Yeah, of course. You simply cut it right out of the verse, right before "he who eats". What are you trying to pull here?

He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord...

So does that include ALL of the holy days, then? Looks like you're saying that all people OBSERVE "all".

"VALUE AND" is not in the text. But even "value" is really neutral. Again, you can value something high or low, in comparison to something else. So it does NOT necessarily equal "Observing". It only does if the value or esteem placed upon it is HIGH ("ABOVE others")

"approve" and "prefer" are two possible uses of it. The actual meaning of the word is "To DECIDE (mentally or judicially)". You're basically assuming the DECISION is automatically FAVORABLE, but the decision is BETWEEN favorable and less favorable.

Now, what are you saying? Because it is the same chapter (author, subject, etc) any two words you pick out of it must have the same meaning? That is totally ridiculous! (and it's getting worse every day).
It is the same topic, and it addresses the way people ESTEEM days, with some esteeming them "above" others by OBSERVING them. --Still same topic, different words! It has nothing to do with what you are trying to ball up and twist the statement into.

Again, why don't you just give up all these desperate arguments and just do what the chapter says instead of trying so hard to change its meaning?

 

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Amplified Bible vs 6
6He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

English Standard Bible – vs 6
6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

[/quote]

It is clear to the unbiased objective reader from the vs 5 6 sequence that what is "esteemed" is being "OBSERVED".

And that is where your argument falls apart Steaver.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Quoting v.6 in all the translations you can does not prove to t he unbiased reader that "what is esteemed is observed". Those are two different statements. "Esteem ABOVE" is what corresponds to "observe". There are days you observe, and then there are all other days, esteemed as the same. The ones observed are "esteemed above" the others. Why try to force anything else in there?

 

You assert what you can not prove.

Leaving it up to the unbiased objective reader to see that - it is only that which is ESTEEMED that will be observed seems like a simple exercise though you like to imagine that they will be confused on that point.


NASB vs 6
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day (alike) Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

Amplified Bible vs 6
5</SPAN>One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days [alike sacred]. Let everyone be fully convinced (satisfied) in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

English Standard Bible – vs 6
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days (alike). Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind
6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.