The Decline of the Sabbath

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Certainly D.L Moody shares the concern and main point of the OP.

(Quotes from his well published sermon on the Ten Commandments available for posting here upon request -- as always).

But it is your point that "the Jews gave us the gift of Christ the TRIUNE God of Exodus 20:1-4"??

GE:

I can't believe it!!! After all those threads between you and me; between you and DHK; between you and several others, you still go on with this 'Moody-slick trick' of yours? For sure, I've never seen or even could dream of such persistence you have!

 

[TC]

Seems to me that some have a problem with some of us esteeming every day alike just as Paul describes in Romans 14 (KJV).

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at naught thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

 

[BobRyan]

GE:

I can't believe it!!! After all those threads between you and me; between you and DHK; between you and several others, you still go on with this 'Moody-slick trick' of yours? For sure, I've never seen or even could dream of such persistence you have!

Hint GE: You have to do something of SUBSTANCE to refute a point. Simply whining that it exists "isn't it".

 

[BobRyan]

Seems to me that some have a problem with some of us esteeming every day alike just as Paul describes in Romans 14 (KJV).

In Romans 14 Paul argues of the Lev 23 ceremonial holy days "Some OBSERVE one day ABOVE another while others OBSERVE EVERY day"

What Paul does not say is "Some OBSERVE NO day" for the list of the Lev 23 Ceremonial Sabbaths.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

What if we rest on Saturday and go to church on Sunday?

 

[mcdirector]

What if we rest on Saturday and go to church on Sunday?

So moved. Do I have a second?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

What if we rest on Saturday and go to church on Sunday?

GE:

Read Juergen Moltmann. He writes about it; has never done anything about it. Is quite a hero under certain SDA's.

If I may vent my opinion, it's just another attempt at improvement of God's own 'opinion' on the case.

 

[BobRyan]

What if we rest on Saturday and go to church on Sunday?

We attend church during evangelistic programs on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday,... Saturday etc.

The question is - which day is the DAY of rest and worship in honor of the Creator's act of creation. Not which day did you happen to spend an hour in church.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Seems to me that some have a problem with some of us esteeming every day alike just as Paul describes in Romans 14 (KJV).

GE:

The 'problem' of Ro14 was not the Sabbath, nor any, 'day'. It was nothing but a haughty, judging spirit. That spirit eminated in worship. Christian feasts deteriorated to the level of its Jewish counter-part. The Kingdom of God was reduced to "food and drink" -- to ceremonial strictness : cultured in a cold, PROUD AND UNFORGIVING HEART. Romans 14 condemns the attitude, and encouraged the resultant freedom in feasting in the Lord Jesus' feasts. If at all it had to do with the Sabbath, Romans 14 undergirds it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

In Romans 14 Paul argues of the Lev 23 ceremonial holy days "Some OBSERVE one day ABOVE another while others OBSERVE EVERY day"

What Paul does not say is "Some OBSERVE NO day" for the list of the Lev 23 Ceremonial Sabbaths.

in Christ,

Bob

GE:

Good feeling to sometimes find something we agree on, Bob Ryan!

Yes, in fact, Paul actually says everybody 'regarded days' - differently and everybody fighting about how and why. He couldn't stomach the petty differences, and haughty spirit of intolerance, notwithstanding showing the best of Christian patience himself.

I think Paul has specifically the Passover in mind in Ro14, because only it entails all the detailed wines and foods and days implicated.

This is the best example in the NT of the transition stage between OT and NT Christianity. I don't like the concept of a 'Jewish', and NT Christianity, and reject, the concept of a 'Judaistic', and NT Christianity implied in this Scripture.

 

[TC]

In Romans 14 Paul argues of the Lev 23 ceremonial holy days "Some OBSERVE one day ABOVE another while others OBSERVE EVERY day"

What Paul does not say is "Some OBSERVE NO day" for the list of the Lev 23 Ceremonial Sabbaths.

in Christ,

Bob

I believe that Paul is addressing the differences between the Jewish and Gentile believers in the church of Rome. Gentiles who did not grow up keeping the feast days or the weekly sabbath would be more inclined to esteem every day alike. The Jewish believers would still be keeping the feast days and the weekly sabbath, so they would esteem one day above another.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I believe that Paul is addressing the differences between the Jewish and Gentile believers in the church of Rome. Gentiles who did not grow up keeping the feast days or the weekly sabbath would be more inclined to esteem every day alike. The Jewish believers would still be keeping the feast days and the weekly sabbath, so they would esteem one day above another.

GE:

In post 22 you gave us Romans 14, verse by verse.
Everything you now imagine in this post, you imagine. You brought things to mind; and left out of mind, everything of Romans 14. The concluded - by yourself, for yourself. It's your choice, only yours, completely yours. Nobody can prevent you from having your own opinion, can they?
Just don't try and make us believe it's the mind of Paul!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BobRyan:

"The question is - which day is the DAY of rest and worship in honor of the Creator's act of creation."

GE:

Question is, What does that mean for the Christian Day of Worship-Rest?
Please Bob, in the spirit of Peter 3:15-16 (so beautifully expressed in the translation mcdirector has given us), "let us reason together". This is an oppertunity to progress, to grow in a better understanding of the things of God as pertains His Sabbath Day. WHY CONTEND? We could both only benefit by accepting one another's viewpoints as often as the opportunity arises, in stead of shooting it off.

 

[Alcott]

The question is - which day is the DAY of rest and worship in honor of the Creator's act of creation.

Is the Creator subject to the time zones we have created? and if so, which does he go by? For that question to make sense those questions need to be asked.

 

[BobRyan]

Regarding Romans 14

I believe that Paul is addressing the differences between the Jewish and Gentile believers in the church of Rome. Gentiles who did not grow up keeping the feast days or the weekly sabbath would be more inclined to esteem every day alike. The Jewish believers would still be keeping the feast days and the weekly sabbath, so they would esteem one day above another.

There is no "esteem alike" in the text in the sense of "esteem NONE to be of any value". Rather one group OBSERVES all the feast days and the other OBSERVES one ABOVE the other, but there is NO example of "some do not OBSERVE ANY of them".

Recall that to OBSERVE a day as Holy meant to refraine from secular persuits on that day in both NT and OT.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Is the Creator subject to the time zones we have created? and if so, which does he go by? For that question to make sense those questions need to be asked.

It is pretty hard to pretend that we do not know the 7th day of the week observed in Palastine in 1st century AD - the days of Christ. We have no excuse in that regard sir.

 

[TC]

GE:

In post 22 you gave us Romans 14, verse by verse.
Everything you now imagine in this post, you imagine. You brought things to mind; and left out of mind, everything of Romans 14. The concluded - by yourself, for yourself. It's your choice, only yours, completely yours. Nobody can prevent you from having your own opinion, can they?
Just don't try and make us believe it's the mind of Paul!

Sorry, but the book of Galatians and Colossians agree with me. Judaisers came in and tried to get the Gentiles to live as the Jew under the Law in order to be saved. Paul wrote to them to confront that error and get them back to faith in Christ and not the keeping of the Law.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Is the Creator subject to the time zones we have created? and if so, which does he go by? For that question to make sense those questions need to be asked.

Legitimate question! Why did Christ became incarnate? There's your full answer! God not only accepeted our flesh; He made our time His time. "The Sabbath was made ...." - it is the Word of God. We should only be able to see God "thus speaking of the Seventh Day" when He created, "speaking in the Son", like He "in these last days", spoke to us "in the Son" ... ALSO, "thus, concerning the Seventh Day".

God in many ways and "at sundry times", "thus concerning the Seventh Day spoke, and you can check up, He "thus", each time, spake, when and while, He showed and made known, His salvation! The Bible proves beyond a doubt for any who believe, the Creator subjected Himself, to 'our' time zones -- which HE, created, and to which He, subjected US; then made our time, His.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Sorry, but the book of Galatians and Colossians agree with me. Judaisers came in and tried to get the Gentiles to live as the Jew under the Law in order to be saved. Paul wrote to them to confront that error and get them back to faith in Christ and not the keeping of the Law.

GE:

Sorry, TC, but it's just the reverse!
First, refer back to several threads on this Board' archives. You may also consult this web-page: http://www.biblestudents.co.za.
But, in short, for your better information on these two Scriptures:

Colossians is the Manifesto of Christian Liberty against the whole world free! In chapter two you will find the Sabbath (Seventh Day) its very test-case. Paul there, says, "Do not you allow yourselves be condemned or judged by any of the world (its powers or authorities or gods or wisdom) pertaining your feasting ("eating and drinking") of Sabbaths' Feast". How not? "Because Christ has triumphed in it" -- His resurrection from the dead! (12 to 15)!

In Galatians Paul nowhere speaks to Jews. Throughout the Letter he addresses the heathen! And he tells THEM, that they had returned to there former gods or "pathetic principles", then went on, to foreswear their apostacy from Christ with having themselves circumcised. He tells them, he not only laboured in vain for them, but they thus - trying to force the arm of God - had themselves by their mutilation of the flesh, cut off from Christ. They had fallen back into the worship of their former heathen idolatry, the worship of the 'gods' or 'first principles' ('stoicheia') of time: "days, months, seasons, years". The land of Galatia was steeped in thes idolatrous practices - peaked by the heathen and idolatrous mysterie of circumcision. There was NOTHING Christian OR, 'Old Testament', or even 'Jewish', in their backsliding, though it smacked of Juda-ism.

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry, but the book of Galatians and Colossians agree with me. Judaisers came in and tried to get the Gentiles to live as the Jew under the Law in order to be saved. Paul wrote to them to confront that error and get them back to faith in Christ and not the keeping of the Law.

It is true that some of the Jewish Christians were arguing that Gentile Christians had to ALSO become Jewish (see Acts 15).

But it is NOT true that Paul taught Christians to reject the WORD of God.

Notice that in Eph 6:1-4 Paul argues that the Ten Commandments REMAIN authorotative as does James in James.

And in Romans 3 Paul argues against your view explicitly "Do we then abolish the Law of God? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God".

in Christ,

Bob