The Decline of the Sabbath

[Eric B]

You have argued this as a Jew vs Gentile issue -- if the Jews are those who MUST esteem-ALL who MUST value and OBSERVE ALL then it is only the GENTILES who could possibly be "Observing one ABOVE the others".

How can you possibly hope to escape that??

In these TWO groups you have -

1. Those esteem ALL - who OBSERVE ALL as you say Jews would be doing.

2. Those who esteem ONE ABOVE the others. Those who OBSERVE one ABOVE the others. (Since you claim this can not be Jews - then that only leaves Gentiles).

You still did not even read anything I said on this issue, even though you quoted part of it. Again:

In the NT, - to ALL CHRISTIANS - they were ALL optional...

I never made any distinction between Jews and Gentiles as to observing all or some in the New Testament. Stop twisting what I have said!

 

[BobRyan]

#1. YOU said the Jews had to "esteem ALL" the Holy days of the Bible and that they had to OBSERVE ALL the Holy Days given in the Bible --

Are you denying that?

Surely you would easily admit that you think that all the Jews were doing that -- even if you want to pretend that Jewish Christians STOPPED doing what they were ALREADY doing as Jews.

#2. ONCE you admit that they were coming from a background of OBSERVING ALL you can hardly deny that their Jewish background ESTEEMED ALL the holy days of scripture "alike" since YOU claim they made no distinction between them in terms of what was commanded.

You have painted yourself into such a corner and now you want to blame "me" for it???

in Christ,

Bob

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Lord's Day

Again, back to 'The Fundamentals', this is how Christians used to look at the Sabbath vs the Lord's Day.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/6528/fund77.htm


BGTF

 

[BobRyan]

D.LMoody gives a similar message as you have stated above - in his sermon on the Ten Commandments when he gets to the Sabbath commandment.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

#1. YOU said the Jews had to "esteem ALL" the Holy days of the Bible and that they had to OBSERVE ALL the Holy Days given in the Bible --

Are you denying that?

Under the Old Covenant they did; is what I said! I never said they STILL did under the NEW Covenant, including Paul's instruction in Rom.14.

Surely you would easily admit that you think that all the Jews were doing that -- even if you want to pretend that Jewish Christians STOPPED doing what they were ALREADY doing as Jews.

#2. ONCE you admit that they were coming from a background of OBSERVING ALL you can hardly deny that their Jewish background ESTEEMED ALL the holy days of scripture "alike" since YOU claim they made no distinction between them in terms of what was commanded.

You have painted yourself into such a corner and now you want to blame "me" for it???

No, you've just TWISTED everything beyond recognition. You're the one talking about Jews now. I had made ONE passing remark about them and Gentiles, and you accuse me of "making it Jew vs. Gentile", but you're the one who keeps harping on that now. It seems these are all baits so you can obfuscate the whole discussion and then be able to claim I'm painting myself into a corner. I hope your "readers" see through that tactic!
Let's end this, already. We're just wasting time and not accomplishing anything.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
#1. YOU said the Jews had to "esteem ALL" the Holy days of the Bible and that they had to OBSERVE ALL the Holy Days given in the Bible --

Are you denying that?

Eric
Under the Old Covenant they did;

ok - baby steps it is.

1. So you now admit to claiming that Jews were esteeming ALL the days in that Biblical list of holy days and OBSERVING ALL the days alike as sacred in that Biblical list of Holy days prior to becoming a Christian.

2. You admit that the pagan gentiles who only start reading the Bible once they become Christians were not already following that Biblical list of Holy days since they had not read the Bible yet. (in fact you may even be imagining that even AFTER reading the Bible they totally disregard ALL the days the Bible gives as holy or sacred)

3. We also see that the gentiles of Acts 13 who had not yet accepted Christianity but DID READ the Bible were in the synagogues with the Jews -- (I am not sure if you claim they TOO were OBSERVING ALL the days in that Biblical list of holydays -- ESTEEMING them ALL alike as sacred -- OR if you would finally admit that these gentile converts to Judaism might have been "esteeming ONE ABOVE the others" instead of OBSERVING ALL of them alike as sacred --- prior to becoming Christians of course.

Take your pick. Avoid the "deny all" approach.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

When I earlier mentioned the Jews and Gentiles in this light, you then criticized that. claiming that Jews and Gentiles issues are not mentioned in Rom.14. So I don't get why you are focusing on it now.

The Gentiles had previously not observed any of the biblical days. All days (in the year) were esteemed the same. They learned in the Bible about ALL of the Biblical days (which include annual, weekly, monthly, etc). Some Jews who continued to esteem these days ABOVE all others tried to make them still mandatory. Hence, some esteem "one" (hypothetical) day OVER another, but others esteem "all days" (without qualification, NOT "observe all holy days") the same--as regular non-special days". But Paul is teaching them that the OT days are no longer mandatory. Not for Jew, not for Gentile, in Christ. That is the point.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't agree with you that the Jews had to observe ALL of the days and I don't agree that the Gentile christians used their pagan beliefs as a basis for rejecting all Bible holy days.

But in the example above - I am showing that even your own arguments here lead to the conclusion I am showing in Romans 14.

But first I need you to admit to the basics of your own argument.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

I did not say Gentile Christians "rejected" the days because of any "pagan" beliefs. Under the new Covenant, (as Christians) the days were optional to both Jews and Gentiles.
Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[BobRyan]

Which of these do you accept as being your postion? -- all of them?

1. So you now admit to claiming that Jews were esteeming ALL the days in that Biblical list of holy days and OBSERVING ALL the days alike as sacred in that Biblical list of Holy days prior to becoming a Christian.

2. You admit that the pagan gentiles who only start reading the Bible once they become Christians were not already following that Biblical list of Holy days since they had not read the Bible yet. (in fact you may even be imagining that even AFTER reading the Bible they totally disregard ALL the days the Bible gives as holy or sacred)

3. We also see that the gentiles of Acts 13 who had not yet accepted Christianity but DID READ the Bible were in the synagogues with the Jews -- (I am not sure if you claim they TOO were OBSERVING ALL the days in that Biblical list of holydays -- ESTEEMING them ALL alike as sacred -- OR if you would finally admit that these gentile converts to Judaism might have been "esteeming ONE ABOVE the others" instead of OBSERVING ALL of them alike as sacred --- prior to becoming Christians of course.

Take your pick. Avoid the "deny all" approach.

in Christ,

Bob