atpollard
Well-Known Member
John 12:32
Did Jesus actually draw “all men without exception”?
Every single person … no exceptions … has been drawn to Christ and must choose to believe or reject Jesus Christ as “Lord and savior”?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The Definition Of “Foreknowledge”
- Thread starter Baptizo
- Start date
Did Jesus actually draw “all men without exception”?
Every single person … no exceptions … has been drawn to Christ and must choose to believe or reject Jesus Christ as “Lord and savior”?
I would also respectfully remind you that the context is given for all of the conversation that Jesus was having with them is based on belief.
John 6:64-65
“But there are some of you that believe not.”For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, “Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”
They are all, without exception, without excuse, because they have knowledge of God, (a point that we have discussed and agreed on above) and reject Him.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
That does not change the fact that Jesus SAID what he said, and what Jesus said contradicts EXACTLY what Silverhair said. Your attempt to muddy the water does not change the facts.
According to the words from the lips of Jesus, recorded by the Apostle John in John 6:44, “WHO can come to Jesus before the Father draws them?”
According to the words from the lips of Jesus, recorded by the Apostle John in John 6:44, “What happens to “them” (those drawn to Jesus by the Father) on the last day?”
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Agreed, but non sequitur to John 12:32
That is exactly what that verse teaches. How is it possible to read it, and not see it? John could now write it any clearer. Why would any person want to not accept that God is in control of salvation?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Since God draws all men and since He desires all to come to repentance that would mean your understanding of the text leads to universalism. Which we know in a heresy.
Now I know you do not want to put forward a heresy so then logically you will need to correct your understanding of that text.
God does draw all people via creation, conviction of sin, the gospel, etc those that respond in faith in Him will be raised up just as Christ said.
We see this clearly in Rom 10:9-10
There are two conditions stated in vs 9
if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord
and
{if you} believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead
{then} you will be saved
It is restated in vs 10
for with the heart a person believes,
resulting in righteousness,
and
with the mouth he confesses,
resulting in salvation.
The person may or may not complete the action in question so their salvation is conditional.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Do you not believe what Christ said? Christ, the light of the world, said He would draw all men and we know that God said no one has an excuse for not knowing Him.
So when He says He will draw all men that is just what He means, do you doubt this?
I’m not trying to muddy the water by giving the context that is given as an explanation in the passage. If it muddies your water, maybe you aren’t drinking from the right water source. I am not arguing that all who believe are drawn by God. I’m not arguing that the body will be raised the last day. I know that Scripture teaches that those who are saved will bodily come to Him.
I also disagree that there is only a select group that is capable of believing. If you look in that inconvenient passage it says that the conversation hinged on who Jesus knew believed. If you want to call God given context muddying the water, you are on the wrong side.
I don’t agree with everything silverhair says either. But salvation is available to all. Since there is nothing you can do to figure out who it is available to and who it isn’t, this is one of the silliest doctrines. We are commanded to preach the gospel to every creature, all the old ones. God loves His creation so much that He wants to save His creation. His creation is corrupted, so He doesn’t want us to love it. His love sent Him to die for His creation so that if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. So John tells us to love not the world, speaking of the corrupt world. But he does say have love for the bretheren, the new creatures.
And this isn’t straying from the point Zaatar71, it is bringing it all together.
It’s absolutely relevant. Jesus was crucified on a cross and lifted up as in John 3 to draw all men to Himself.
I read with context and can’t ignore that Jesus said these things to them because he knew they didn’t believe Him.
I don’t know how you can continue to ignore it and cherry pick out only the verses that you want to use.
My statement in no way supports Arminianism. There is no salvation for any without God offering. Why you think that God has not offered salvation to all is beyond my comprehension. The Bible is clear that God loves all of his creation, so He said to preach the gospel to every creature. If He didn’t love His entire creation, He wouldn’t have used the all inclusive word to say that He loved it.
But God is longsuffering and is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Context for that passage includes ungodly men who God is patient with, not willing or determining that they perish. He is waiting for them to repent. But Judgement will come whether or not they all come in the accepted time.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Why indeed would someone not want to be saved.
But the reality is that most people do reject the God of the bible.
We are to present the offer but we can not make them accept it.
I do not think that is the context in 2 pet.3:9.
Read from 3:1 all the way through the chapter. There is a contrast between two groups, do you see it?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I do not doubt what Jesus said. I have strong doubts about your interpretation of what Jesus said.
If Jesus drew “every person without exception” (excluding none) and THAT is what Jesus meant, then how was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus? (Itzcoatl was the fourth king of Tenochtitlan, and the founder of the Aztec Empire, ruling from 1427 to 1440. He was the grandfather of Moctezuma Xocoyotzin, who ruled the Aztec Empire when Columbus arrived in the Americas with the Gospel. Itzcoatl died 50 years before the arrival of Columbus and the gospel and practiced human sacrifice to his winged snake god.). So if Jesus meant what YOU CLAIM he meant, how was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus Christ to reject “so great a salvation”.
On the other hand, if Jesus meant “all men without distinction” (as in some from every nation, tribe and tongue would be drawn), then it is not necessary for Itzcoatl to be drawn, but only for some of the people from the Americas to be among those drawn. That we do have with MILLIONS of Christians of meso-American decent. In addition, we have a vision of the ultimate fulfillment of this promise presented in [Rev 5:9 NKJV] And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
They don't change anything. God's foreknowledge is active. He determined to foreknow them. They're begotten of Him after all. They're not begotten of themselves.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So my question is why do you not believe what Jesus said? You seem to go to great lengths to deny the word of God, why is that?
What about that verse is so hard for you to understand? If Christ had meant some men could He not have said that? If He meant some of every nation tribe and tongue could He not have said that?
It seems you are more interested in supporting your man-made religion than you are in trusting what the Lord said.
What you fail to realize that although Christ will draw all men that does not necessitate that all men will be saved. Just as God desires all to be saved but not all are because not all will put their faith in Him so as to be saved.
Your man-made religion requires that people be drawn through and Irresistible force, but the bible does not support that view so you have to come up with contrived situations in the attempt to give it credence.
It is not doubts about your interpretation, I can tell you flat out that your view is wrong and un-biblical.
tribe and tongue could He not have said that?
It seems you are more interested in supporting your man-made religion than you are in trusting what the Lord said.
What you fail to realize that although Christ will draw all men that does not necessitate that all men will be saved. Just as God desires all to be saved but not all are because not all will put their faith in Him so as to be saved.
Your man-made religion requires that people be drawn through and Irresistible force, but the bible does not support that view so you have to come up with contrived situations in the attempt to give it credence.
It is not doubts about your interpretation, I can tell you flat out that your view is wrong and un-biblical.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Knowing something is not active. That is what you would like it to be but it is not.
God knows who will freely trust in Him but He does not cause them to do so.
Why do you add to what the text says?
True they are begotten of Him but only after they have believed.
Jesus was delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God the Father.
Active.
Who, through the purpose of God, have been made holy by the Spirit, disciples of Jesus, made clean by his blood: May you have grace and peace in full measure. - 1 Peter 1:2 BBE
God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. May God give you more and more grace and peace. - 1 Peter 1:2 NLT
chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. - 1 Peter 1:2 RSV
Last edited:
I never thought that you did. You fail to show me how the half percent in question should get a different definition than the 99.5%.
All of your proofs make clearer sense when actual knowledge is used, especially when you put the usage in your proofs under scrutiny.
You keep telling me what the translators meant by the word. I haven’t seen that that is what God meant by the word.
There are three groups. Do you see them.
The ungodly men, the people that God is waiting for who will not be left with the ungodly, and the believers.
Peter is in no way pretending that he is not a person anymore. This is not selection as you hope for. God is still waiting for all ungodly men to repent and respond to Him. But not all will come. Some don’t believe and are turned away by the gospel as it says in the context that God gives in John 6:64-65