The definitive evidence against only limited atonement.

[37818]

In the gospel of Luke we have Jesus' words, in Luke 22:20-21, ". . . saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ."
The "you" was spoken to disciples at the table, which did not excluded lost Judas. Christ's blood was shed for all the lost.
Romans 5:8, ". . . while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . ."
1 Timothy 1:15, ". . . This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. . . ."
Now Judas we know was not saved. Christ died for him too.

 

[Brightfame52]

In the gospel of Luke we have Jesus' words, in Luke 22:20-21, ". . . saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ."
The "you" was spoken to disciples at the table, which did not excluded lost Judas. Christ's blood was shed for all the lost.
Romans 5:8, ". . . while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . ."
1 Timothy 1:15, ". . . This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. . . ."
Now Judas we know was not saved. Christ died for him too.

So then its possible that people will die in their sins even after Christ has died for them as well ? Yes or No ?

 

[Silverhair]

So then its possible that people will die in their sins even after Christ has died for them as well ? Yes or No ?

Well if you trust what the bible says then you will find your answer. Which just in case you can't figure it out is YES

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Just because Christ Jesus was the propitiation for us does not mean that everyone will be saved. Those that trust in Him are saved those that do not are lost.

 

[Silverhair]

So then its possible that people will die in their sins even after Christ has died for them as well ? Yes or No ?

Well if you just take the time to read the bible you will find your answer. Just in case you miss it the answer is YES.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[Brightfame52]

Well if you trust what the bible says then you will find your answer. Which just in case you can't figure it out is YES

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Just because Christ Jesus was the propitiation for us does not mean that everyone will be saved. Those that trust in Him are saved those that do not are lost.

Thats error. And its an attack against the saving success of the death of Christ.

 

[37818]

Thats error. And its an attack against the saving success of the death of Christ.

What is in error? Not the truth of Luke 22:20-21 that included lost Judas.

 

[AustinC]

Did Jesus atonement pay for all sins or only for some?

 

[Silverhair]

Did Jesus atonement pay for all sins or only for some?

All, His blood was sufficient to pay for all sins but is only efficient for those that choose to trust in Him.

 

[Silverhair]

Thats error. And its an attack against the saving success of the death of Christ.

You seem to have a problem with what the bible says. Why is that?

 

[Revmitchell]

You seem to have a problem with what the bible says. Why is that?

While I do not agree with him on most things to include this issue you have misrepresented his position. Just because someone does not agree with you on doctrine doesnt mean they have a problem with what the Bible says. Even if you are the one who is right. Such claims are mean spirited, untrue, and unnecessary.

 

[AustinC]

All, His blood was sufficient to pay for all sins but is only efficient for those that choose to trust in Him.

Alright...then you just limited the atonement with your definition.
Also, the sin of unbelief is not sufficiently nor efficiently atoned for in your definition.
Ultimately, you just limited the atonement of Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

While I do not agree with him on most things to include this issue you have misrepresented his position. Just because someone does not agree with you on doctrine doesnt mean they have a problem with what the Bible says. Even if you are the one who is right. Such claims are mean spirited, untrue, and unnecessary.

I think you have gone over the top on this one. His comment "Thats error. And its an attack against the saving success of the death of Christ."

He said that my view was in error but I just quoted the bible. So the question stands for him. Does he have a problem with what the bible says.

What I said does not misrepresent his position, he is saying that the bible is in error. Why, is it because it does not fit with his Calvinist theology?

 

[Silverhair]

Alright...then you just limited the atonement with your definition.
Also, the sin of unbelief is not sufficiently nor efficiently atoned for in your definition.
Ultimately, you just limited the atonement of Christ.

The only sin God can't forgive is the sin of unbelief.

Unbelief is the condition that brings condemnation, (Joh_3:18) faith in Christ Jesus is the condition that brings salvation. (Joh_6:47)

The atoning death of Christ does not automatically atone for the sins of those for whom Christ died. Paul teaches us that it is only effective through faith (Eph_1:13; Joh_3:36).

You did notice what Paul says in Romans.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

While your theology would limit the saved to those that God picked out the bible shows us that salvation is limited to those that trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

As I said the atonement was and is sufficient to save all, but it is only efficient to save those that believe. So in that sense the atonement is limited. It is limited my man not God as you would have it.

And to forestall your response of "your saying man can overrule God" foolishness. Man does not and cannot overrule God but man does have to meet the condition for salvation that God have put in place, faith in Christ Jesus.

God has done everything possible to bring you forgiveness and salvation. But if you refuse to believe in His free gift of forgiveness then you will be held responsible for your sins.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[AustinC]

Unbelief is the condition that brings condemnation, (Joh_3:18) faith in Christ Jesus is the condition that brings salvation. (Joh_6:47)

The atoning death of Christ does not automatically atone for the sins of those for whom Christ died. Paul teaches us that it is only effective through faith (Eph_1:13; Joh_3:36).

You did notice what Paul says in Romans.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

While your theology would limit the saved to those that God picked out the bible shows us that salvation is limited to those that trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

As I said the atonement was and is sufficient to save all, but it is only efficient to save those that believe. So in that sense the atonement is limited. It is limited my man not God as you would have it.

And to forestall your response of "your saying man can overrule God" foolishness. Man does not and cannot overrule God but man does have to meet the condition for salvation that God have put in place, faith in Christ Jesus.

You seem blind to the fact that you are arguing a limited form of atonement. In your presentation your view is not unlimited atonement. What you have is a hybrid limited atonement.
By the the way, unless you are a universalist, believing all humans will go to heaven, you have a limited atonement position.

 

[Brightfame52]

What is in error? Not the truth of Luke 22:20-21 that included lost Judas.

So you believe Christ died for judas and he was lost anyway ? Is that correct ?

 

[Silverhair]

You seem blind to the fact that you are arguing a limited form of atonement. In your presentation your view is not unlimited atonement. What you have is a hybrid limited atonement.
By the the way, unless you are a universalist, believing all humans will go to heaven, you have a limited atonement position.

Austin you want to have God pick out some to be saved and you have to hope that you are one of those pick out. But, and this is what you seem to miss, God has set the condition for salvation and that is faith in His son.

I did not say that all would be saved and you know this. What I have said is that only those that trust in Christ Jesus will be saved, just as the bible says.

Austin you should stop playing silly word games, it does not put you in a good light. You must have missed this when you read my post "While your theology would limit the saved to those that God picked out the bible shows us that salvation is limited to those that trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation."

How is what the bible says a hybrid limited atonement?

 

[Brightfame52]

You seem to have a problem with what the bible says. Why is that?

You dont have a problem thinking that Christs death lacked saving efficacy.

 

[Revmitchell]

I think you have gone over the top on this one. His comment "Thats error. And its an attack against the saving success of the death of Christ."

He said that my view was in error but I just quoted the bible. So the question stands for him. Does he have a problem with what the bible says.

What I said does not misrepresent his position, he is saying that the bible is in error. Why, is it because it does not fit with his Calvinist theology?

Did you ask him if "he believes the bible is in error"?

 

[Silverhair]

So you believe Christ died for judas and he was lost anyway ? Is that correct ?

Your the one that wants to limit the extent of the atonement. Why is that?

 

[Revmitchell]

Thats error. And its an attack against the saving success of the death of Christ.

It may or may not be in error but being wrong doesnt mean it is an attack. that misrepresents his position. It lacks integrity. Did you ask him if he wanted to attack the death of Christ? I bet he says he didnt and wouldnt. To say then that he has is a debate tactic and not grounded in integrity.