The definitive evidence against only limited atonement.

[Silverhair]

You dont have a problem thinking that Christs death lacked saving efficacy.

Why would you say such a silly thing? Do you not read what I have posted?

 

[Silverhair]

Did you ask him if "he believes the bible is in error"?

When I quote the bible and he says my view, which is stated by the quote, is in error that would indicate to me that he believes the bible is in error since he does not agree with the quote.

 

[AustinC]

The only sin God can't forgive is the sin of unbelief.

Unbelief is the condition that brings condemnation, (Joh_3:18) faith in Christ Jesus is the condition that brings salvation. (Joh_6:47)

The atoning death of Christ does not automatically atone for the sins of those for whom Christ died. Paul teaches us that it is only effective through faith (Eph_1:13; Joh_3:36).

You did notice what Paul says in Romans.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

While your theology would limit the saved to those that God picked out the bible shows us that salvation is limited to those that trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

As I said the atonement was and is sufficient to save all, but it is only efficient to save those that believe. So in that sense the atonement is limited. It is limited my man not God as you would have it.

And to forestall your response of "your saying man can overrule God" foolishness. Man does not and cannot overrule God but man does have to meet the condition for salvation that God have put in place, faith in Christ Jesus.

God has done everything possible to bring you forgiveness and salvation. But if you refuse to believe in His free gift of forgiveness then you will be held responsible for your sins.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So, you have just limited the atonement since you state there is a sin (unbelief) that is not atoned for.

What we can debate is the full extent of that which is limited, meaning the spectrum of sins that are not atoned for by Jesus. But, in any case, you are arguing for a limited atonement.

 

[AustinC]

Austin you want to have God pick out some to be saved and you have to hope that you are one of those pick out. But, and this is what you seem to miss, God has set the condition for salvation and that is faith in His son.

I did not say that all would be saved and you know this. What I have said is that only those that trust in Christ Jesus will be saved, just as the bible says.

Austin you should stop playing silly word games, it does not put you in a good light. You must have missed this when you read my post "While your theology would limit the saved to those that God picked out the bible shows us that salvation is limited to those that trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation."

How is what the bible says a hybrid limited atonement?

I know exactly what you have said and you unequivocally limit the atonement. You limit the atonement by placing human will as a limiting force that negates anything God has done.

Once again, unless you are a universalist (which you are not), you have a limited atonement position. It is different than my limited atonement position, but it is a limited atonement position nonetheless.

 

[Silverhair]

I know exactly what you have said and you unequivocally limit the atonement. You limit the atonement by placing human will as a limiting force that negates anything God has done.

Once again, unless you are a universalist (which you are not), you have a limited atonement position. It is different than my limited atonement position, but it is a limited atonement position nonetheless.

Well it seems that you do not like the fact that God placed a condition on salvation, faith in His son.

You must not read what I post because you keep saying the same thing. Salvation is unlimited in the sense that it is available to all but it is limited to those that actually meet Gods' condition, faith in His son. You seem to have a real problem understanding that.

What is the desire of God?
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And whom does God save?
1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

In case you missed it God desires all to be saved but He saves only those that believe. That is not man overruling God. Man is just meeting the condition set by God.

 

[AustinC]

Well it seems that you do not like the fact that God placed a condition on salvation, faith in His son.

You must not read what I post because you keep saying the same thing. Salvation is unlimited in the sense that it is available to all but it is limited to those that actually meet Gods' condition, faith in His son. You seem to have a real problem understanding that.

What is the desire of God?
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And whom does God save?
1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

In case you missed it God desires all to be saved but He saves only those that believe. That is not man overruling God. Man is just meeting the condition set by God.

Since God gifts faith to those He chooses to save by grace (Ephesians 2:1-9) I have no problem with God choosing according to His Sovereign decree.
Now, when you are done quoting sentences in the Bible, out of context, let me know. All those passages have been thoroughly discussed and your position has been utterly destroyed. But, continue on in denial if you wish.

What you have shown is that you teach limited atonement.

 

[Silverhair]

Austin it seems to me that the problem stems from our different view of the sovereignty of God. For me God is sovereign no matter what man may or may not do. God is also sovereign no matter what He may or may not do. God does not have to control or decree all things to be sovereign, He just is.

This quote sums it up quite well “There is neither logical nor biblical reason why a sovereign God by His own sovereign design could not allow creatures made in His image the freedom of moral choice.”

If God in His sovereignty chooses to create people who can make true free will choices and to accomplish His plan and purpose through their undetermined choices, then is it not His right to do so?

 

[Silverhair]

Since God gifts faith to those He chooses to save by grace (Ephesians 2:1-9) I have no problem with God choosing according to His Sovereign decree.
Now, when you are done quoting sentences in the Bible, out of context, let me know. All those passages have been thoroughly discussed and your position has been utterly destroyed. But, continue on in denial if you wish.

What you have shown is that you teach limited atonement.

Austin you struggle with the fact the God is sovereign. You want to limit what He does and yet claim that others do that.

You may think that you have refuted what I have posted but that is only because it does not fit your extra biblical view.

I do not have a problem with God saving according to His condition, which I have pointed out to you many times.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I am sure you will stick with your Calvinism just as surely as I will hold to the bible.

 

[Revmitchell]

When I quote the bible and he says my view, which is stated by the quote, is in error that would indicate to me that he believes the bible is in error since he does not agree with the quote.

Good grief do you really believe he thinks the Bible is in error or are you just wanting to paint him in the worst possible light?

 

[Silverhair]

Good grief do you really believe he thinks the Bible is in error or are you just wanting to paint him in the worst possible light?

I notice that you have not said anything to him re his comment.
If he does not trust what the bible says and wants to change what the text says so that it fits his preconceived ideas then yes he must think that the bible is in error.

You must agree that the bible is the standard that we hold, not some man made extra biblical idea of what the bible says.

Reread post #5 and tell me what he has said.

 

[AustinC]

Austin you struggle with the fact the God is sovereign. You want to limit what He does and yet claim that others do that.

You may think that you have refuted what I have posted but that is only because it does not fit your extra biblical view.

I do not have a problem with God saving according to His condition, which I have pointed out to you many times.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I am sure you will stick with your Calvinism just as surely as I will hold to the bible.

LOL, you attack me and don't even address the fact that you are teaching a form of limited atonement. This is the topic of the thread.
At this point it is clear you hace little concept of God being Sovereign. You seem to imagine your teaching that humans can thwart God's atoning work makes God Sovereign while God choosing whom He died to atone somehow makes him less than Sovereign.
I cannot make up how backward your view actually is.

 

[Brightfame52]

Your the one that wants to limit the extent of the atonement. Why is that?

Why do you limit the effect of the atonement ?

 

[Brightfame52]

It may or may not be in error but being wrong doesnt mean it is an attack. that misrepresents his position. It lacks integrity. Did you ask him if he wanted to attack the death of Christ? I bet he says he didnt and wouldnt. To say then that he has is a debate tactic and not grounded in integrity.

It is an attack on the saving effect of the atonement. If folk are dying and going to hell for sins Christ died for already, that makes His death useless.

 

[Revmitchell]

It is an attack on the saving effect of the atonement. If folk are dying and going to hell for sins Christ died for already, that makes His death useless.

Sigh, more debate tactics. Sophomoric at best lacks integrity to be sure.

 

[Brightfame52]

Why would you say such a silly thing? Do you not read what I have posted?

Why do you think ? Dont you believe, think that sinners Christ substituted for shall yet die in their sins ? Yes or No

 

[AustinC]

Austin it seems to me that the problem stems from our different view of the sovereignty of God. For me God is sovereign no matter what man may or may not do. God is also sovereign no matter what He may or may not do. God does not have to control or decree all things to be sovereign, He just is.

This quote sums it up quite well “There is neither logical nor biblical reason why a sovereign God by His own sovereign design could not allow creatures made in His image the freedom of moral choice.”

If God in His sovereignty chooses to create people who can make true free will choices and to accomplish His plan and purpose through their undetermined choices, then is it not His right to do so?

God is Sovereign no matter what man may or may not do. Therefore, God by His Sovereign decree, atones for those whom He chooses to atone. Man's lack of faith cannot thwart the Sovereign will of God or His atonement. Yet, you have openly declared that the atonement is not effective to any who choose not to believe.
Silverhair, you are the one who limits what God can or cannot do. You pronounce mans will as greater than God's will. You do not view God as Sovereign. You can make all the claims you want, but since you declare that unbelief is greater than Jesus atonement, you make man greater than God.
Your idea of God is not a God who is Sovereign.

 

[DaveXR650]

The atoning death of Christ does not automatically atone for the sins of those for whom Christ died. Paul teaches us that it is only effective through faith (Eph_1:13; Joh_3:36).

From what I can tell, Jonathan Edwards taught this also, and he had fairly good Calvinist cred. If you think about this, most Calvinists believe this, as well as free will Baptists and regular Baptists. Some particular Baptists and hyper-Calvinists believe that if you are part of the elect then you were either saved at the time of Christ's death or even from the foundation of the world, and that saving faith is when you realize you are elect.

 

[DaveXR650]

I myself have a hard time with the concept of a "limited" atonement in the sense that it is often taught. If you teach this with the idea that before time began, in God's mind, certain people would have Christ die for them and THAT would be the reason that some are saved and others, before they were even born were doomed with no possibility of redemption.

But, for everyone who believes that no one can come to God without action by the Holy Spirit then could you not work backwards in logic and arrive at a particular redemption (atonement). Did the Holy Spirit know who he was going to act on? Is anyone else going to get saved? If the HS knows who they are, when did he know this. If he always knew this then why is it so terrible to say he knew this when Jesus went to the cross. Did Jesus know who he was going to die for? Several verses indicate he did. Then what's wrong with saying that the one's who come by faith because of the action of the Holy Spirit are the one's Jesus died for. What I'm trying to say is that it is possible to believe that the atonement was particular or limited without saying that THAT is the reason why people don't get saved. These doctrines have to be taken together or they never make sense.

 

[Silverhair]

LOL, you attack me and don't even address the fact that you are teaching a form of limited atonement. This is the topic of the thread.
At this point it is clear you hace little concept of God being Sovereign. You seem to imagine your teaching that humans can thwart God's atoning work makes God Sovereign while God choosing whom He died to atone somehow makes him less than Sovereign.
I cannot make up how backward your view actually is.

LOL you just show that you do not even read what I post. You just need people to prop up your theological view so you can feel good about yourself. I have answered your comments but you ignore them because they do not fit into your view of the world.

I understand the sovereignty of God much better than you. I do not try to limit Him in what He can do, that falls on you young man.

 

[Silverhair]

Why do you limit the effect of the atonement ?

I have not done that your Calvinism sure does though, although you cannot see it.