The Deity Of Christ In The NIV And KJV

[Amy.G]

And I never did get my question answered.

Why doesn't the KJV capitalize "He, Him, His" since these words refer to the diety?

Like I said, I didn't expect an answer.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

And I never did get my question answered.

Why doesn't the KJV capitalize "He, Him, His" since these words refer to the diety?

Like I said, I didn't expect an answer.

Why limit your question to the KJV? They were simply following the example of earlier English Bibles: Wycliffe (1380), Tyndale (1534), Cranmer (1539), Geneva (1557), and Rheims (1582). You may be interested to know that many MVs also practice this, including the NIV and the ESV. Those versions that do capitalize these pronouns are adding something that is not found in the Greek or Hebrew.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. (KJV)

 

[Amy.G]

Why limit your question to the KJV? They were simply following the example of earlier English Bibles: Wycliffe (1380), Tyndale (1534), Cranmer (1539), Geneva (1557), and Rheims (1582). You may be interested to know that many MVs also practice this, including the NIV and the ESV. Those versions that do capitalize these pronouns are adding something that is not found in the Greek or Hebrew.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. (KJV)

Because of Salamander's argument that some versions didn't capitalize "Savior" and by not doing so were showing disrespect to God. He said this was the case with the NIV, which is not true. He was claiming that he followed certain grammatical rules and my question was to him. If this is a rule of grammer, then why doesn't the KJV capitalize the personal pronouns of God? If he is going to criticize other versions for making this grammatical error, then he must be willing to apply it to the KJV as well.
He has stilll not answered my question.

 

[EdSutton]

FTR folks, the word some of you are tossing around here, occasionally is "deity", not "diety".

A "diety" is what I need to go on, and maybe I would lose some more "weighty".

Signed, Language Cop

 

[Amy.G]

FTR folks, the word three of you are tossing around here, occasionally is "deity", not "diety".

A "diety" is what I need to go on, and maybe I would lose some more "weighty".

Signed, Language Cop

Well, excuuuuuuuse meity! :laugh:

 

[franklinmonroe]

... Those versions that do capitalize these pronouns are adding something that is not found in the Greek or Hebrew...

True; and of course, any English translation is also adding book titles, commas, conversion of weights and measures, question marks, capitalization of proper nouns, italic typeface, spaces between words, quotation marks, indication of paragraphs, chapter numbers, 'red' lettering, parentheses, dashes or ellipses, exclaimation marks, Arabic numerals, etc. (as compared to most MSS).

 

[Salamander]

Because of Salamander's argument that some versions didn't capitalize "Savior" and by not doing so were showing disrespect to God. He said this was the case with the NIV, which is not true. He was claiming that he followed certain grammatical rules and my question was to him. If this is a rule of grammer, then why doesn't the KJV capitalize the personal pronouns of God? If he is going to criticize other versions for making this grammatical error, then he must be willing to apply it to the KJV as well.
He has stilll not answered my question.

I suppose the difference just MIGHT be that "Saviour" is a proper noun and "he,his",etc. are PRONOUNS.:godisgood:

 

[Salamander]

neither do we use several elements of 17th century elizabethan-jacobian period English in our spelling, syntax and grammar anymore.

Are you consistent?
How doth thou spellest "neighbour" or "labour" or "vapour" or "musick"?

Peruse the spelling chart, this is not a joke:
http://www.biblebelievers.com/believers-org/counterfeit-kjv.html

HankD

I should hope the seriousness of your interjection was more aptly applied to the cause than this. Simple spelling updates are alot different than completely different words being used.

Since Yeshua Ha'Mashiach is "Saviour"/ "Savior" and neither a "saviour/savior" I believe my stance is well justified to object to lesser renderings of the only Saviour of all mankind.

 

[Salamander]

The 'Diety of Christ' issue is stressed more in the NIV and TNIV than in all versions of the KJVs -- oh, I mean EDITIONS.

Neither my e-sword.com KJV1611 Edition nor KJV1769 Edition with Strong's numbers contain the words 'saviour' nor 'Saviour'.

Now the KJV1611 Edition does contain 'Sauiour'

Here are some Saviour counts:

Geneva
17 OT
24 NT

KJV1611
14 OT
24 NT

KJV1679
13 OT
24 NT

BTW, neither in the OT or NT are all 'saviour's 'Saviour', but most of them are.

So we can see that 3 Saviours were lost from the Geneva 1599 Edition and the KJV1611 Edition.
So we see that 1 Saviour is lost when the KJV1611 Edition got MODIFIED, EDITED, CHANGED, REVISED.

How many 'Saviour's can we afford to loose before we realise that changing the Bible is WRONG-WRONG-WRONG?

By contrast; the HCSB = Christian Standard Bible (Holman, 2003) has these 'Savior's (all Capital Letters on 'S'). This is the original (unrevised HCSB).

18 OT
24 NT

Notice by comparison to the HCSB (STANDARD)
the KJV1611 Edition is missing 4 'Savior's
the KJV1769 family of Editions is missing 3 'Savior's

\o/ Praise Hasheem the Saviour, saviour, savior, Savior \o/

My Savior was never lost

 

[Salamander]

No point or censure attempted. Nor did I assume anyone was yelling, eiother.

My alter ego, Language Cop, merely found it hilarious when you were 'called' for the misspelling of "grammatical" as "grammtical".

Ed

Nope, a simple omission of the "a" was a typo, not a mis-spelling.

You copied and pasted what you thought were contradictory statements used in the same sentence and mocked them on that misrepresentation of what was actually said.

Go hit yourself with that billyclub/night-stick, throw yourself in the back of the patrol car and please get some one else to haul you off to the jailhouse for such a heinous crime.

I wonder if you're really such an observing "language cop" if the exception to a certain grammatical rule will be seen by the scrutiny of that critical eye of yours?

 

[rbell]

Why limit your question to the KJV? They were simply following the example of earlier English Bibles: Wycliffe (1380), Tyndale (1534), Cranmer (1539), Geneva (1557), and Rheims (1582). You may be interested to know that many MVs also practice this, including the NIV and the ESV. Those versions that do capitalize these pronouns are adding something that is not found in the Greek or Hebrew.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. (KJV)

True; and of course, any English translation is also adding book titles, commas, conversion of weights and measures, question marks, capitalization of proper nouns, italic typeface, spaces between words, quotation marks, indication of paragraphs, chapter numbers, 'red' lettering, parentheses, dashes or ellipses, exclaimation marks, Arabic numerals, etc. (as compared to most MSS).

Excellent response; hence, the danger in assigning spiritual motives to spelling.

rbell<----quitethankfulthatweputspacesbetweenwordsnow
(breath)andjudiciouslyusecapitalletters.

 

[Salamander]

Excellent response; hence, the danger in assigning spiritual motives to spelling.

rbell<----quitethankfulthatweputspacesbetweenwordsnow
(breath)andjudiciouslyusecapitalletters.

More like the dangers to inaccurate versions when all are used appropiately to allow the full meaning to be received without the errors of those inaccurate versions.:wavey:

 

[rbell]

More like the dangers to inaccurate versions when all are used appropiately to allow the full meaning to be received without the errors of those inaccurate versions.:wavey:

I just tried to diagram this sentence and appeared to have pulled something.

How's that again? Rephrase...

 

[franklinmonroe]

... How's that again? Rephrase...

It was in Salamanderese; it said: 'I am always right. You are always wrong'.

(I don't really understand it either, I just know that's what he always means.)

 

[EdSutton]

I wonder if you're really such an observing "language cop" if the exception to a certain grammatical rule will be seen by the scrutiny of that critical eye of yours?

Technically, yes.

However, I was combining the essences of three posts of mine, plus some of yours, without naming them specifically, in my last response.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Since Yeshua Ha'Mashiach is "Saviour"/ "Savior" and neither a "saviour/savior" I believe my stance is well justified to object to lesser renderings of the only Saviour of all mankind.

Now I get it, I think. Apparently you mean such "lesser renderings" such as that of David, who said this of God:

3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence. (II Sam. 22:3 - KJV)

The Psalmist:

21 They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt; (Ps. 106:21 - KJV)

The LORD (Yahweh) Himself, speaking through and recorded by Isaiah:

20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them. (Isa. 19:20 - KJV)

Jeremiah:

7 O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee. 8 O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night? (Jer. 14:7-8 - KJV)

And Paul:

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. (Eph. 5:23 - KJV)

Sorry, the version I use has "greater renderings", at least in these instances, as the renderings are in a better, more consistent, and are in a more reverent manner when referring to the Lord, in both the OT and NT. (Gotta' admit, the NIV, even if the preferred version of my bride, only gets a 20% better score here, with only 3 of the above 15 underlined instances having 'better renderings'.)

3 The God of my strength, in whom I will trust;
My shield and the horn of my salvation,
My stronghold and my refuge;
My Savior, You save me from violence. (II Sam.22:3)

21 They forgot God their Savior,
Who had done great things in Egypt, (Ps. 106:21)

20 And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD because of the oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them. (Isa. 19:20)

7 O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us,
Do it for Your name’s sake;
For our backslidings are many,
We have sinned against You.
8 O the Hope of Israel, his Savior in time of trouble,
Why should You be like a stranger in the land,
And like a traveler who turns aside to tarry for a night? (Jer. 14:7-8)

23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. (Eph. 5:23) (all, NKJV)

BTW, and for free, I'll also toss in Hos. 13:4, as an example, and compare this in the KJV with the NIV, which a few have spoken of, in such 'glowing terms' on this forum. ['Burn it!', 'Toss it in the trash.' (I would assume, so it will be burned, just as the false accusation has been made on this same forum about the intended destiny of some NT mss, before they were allegedly 'rescued' by von Tischendorf.)] And I'll also compare it with the DARBY, NKJV, HCSB, and YLT.

4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me. [KJV, (but no idea exactly which KJV, only that it is not the 'original', 'genuine' version of 1611, 'cause it ain't got the Apocrypha!)]

4 Yet I [am] Jehovah thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou hast known no God but me; and there is no saviour besides me. (DARBY, 1890)

4 "But I am the LORD your God,
who brought you out of [a] Egypt.
You shall acknowledge no God but me,
no Savior except me. (NIV, 1978, 1984)

4 “ Yet I am the LORD your God
Ever since the land of Egypt,
And you shall know no God but Me;
For there is no savior besides Me. (NKJV, 1982)

4 I have been the LORD your God (A)
ever since [a] the land of Egypt;
you know no God but Me, (B)
and no Savior exists besides Me. (C) (HCSB, 2002, 2003)

4 And I [am] Jehovah thy God from the land of Egypt, And a God besides Me thou dost not know, And a Saviour -- there is none save Me. (YLT, 1862)

Even thought Robert Young "got it" nearly a century and a half ago, I guess it still has taken some other folks a while longer and slowly, but surely, a few more times to get it right, hunh?

I am happy to learn that both you, Salamander, and I are in agreement that Yeshua Ha'Mashiach (and I presume, Yahweh) is the "Savior", and not merely "a saviour", and that you also would not condone a version with any such "lesser ren..."

? ? ?

Oh, wait! You do condone such a version, don't you??

And just after I thought I'd figured it out, no less. Suddenly, I'm all confused again.

Ed

 

[Salamander]

I just tried to diagram this sentence and appeared to have pulled something.

How's that again? Rephrase...

It is the use of grammar incorporated to give answer to one's dilemma without wasting time to include other words simply to take up space.

The danger done to inaccurate versions is using captilization where it belongs .

 

[Salamander]

It was in Salamanderese; it said: 'I am always right. You are always wrong'.

(I don't really understand it either, I just know that's what he always means.)

You should get a crystal ball and start reading palms.:wavey:

 

[Salamander]

Technically, yes.

However, I was combining the essences of three posts of mine, plus some of yours, without naming them specifically, in my last response.

Ed

Yep, you missed it.

 

[Salamander]

Now I get it, I think. Apparently you mean such "lesser renderings" such as that of David, who said this of God:The Psalmist:The LORD (Yahweh) Himself, speaking through and recorded by Isaiah: Jeremiah:And Paul:Sorry, the version I use has "greater renderings", at least in these instances, as the renderings are in a better, more consistent, and are in a more reverent manner when referring to the Lord, in both the OT and NT. (Gotta' admit, the NIV, even if the preferred version of my bride, only gets a 20% better score here, with only 3 of the above 15 underlined instances having 'better renderings'.)

I would rather not be assimilated into a society which remains confused and guessing what the word of God is.

BTW, and for free, I'll also toss in Hos. 13:4, as an example, and compare this in the KJV with the NIV, which a few have spoken of, in such 'glowing terms' on this forum. ['Burn it!', 'Toss it in the trash.' (I would assume, so it will be burned, just as the false accusation has been made on this same forum about the intended destiny of some NT mss, before they were allegedly 'rescued' by von Tischendorf.)] And I'll also compare it with the DARBY, NKJV, HCSB, and YLT.Even thought Robert Young "got it" nearly a century and a half ago, I guess it still has taken some other folks a while longer and slowly, but surely, a few more times to get it right, hunh?

I believe the context and prior mention of God over-rules your summerization insisting upon some sort of innaccuracies in the text of the KJB.

I am happy to learn that both you, Salamander, and I are in agreement that Yeshua Ha'Mashiach (and I presume, Yahweh) is the "Savior", and not merely "a saviour", and that you also would not condone a version with any such "lesser ren..."

In specific references you made no arguement to substanciate your jest.

? ? ?

Oh, wait! You do condone such a version, don't you??

And just after I thought I'd figured it out, no less. Suddenly, I'm all confused again.

Ed

No wonder.

BTW, it's YHWH.