The devil wants us fighting about this...why?

[ILUVLIGHT]

Larry ;

I agree with that Bob, but doesn't it make my point? That man can be "free" while having no other option than to do what God knows he will do.

I believe God will fulfill prophecy but, His plans for us is altered by our actions. Jeremiah 18 certainly says so. We are all still clay in the hands of God. If we are evil He has a plan for that. If we turn from our evil ways He has a plan for that as well. We are commanded to Love God and we cannot do that unless we have the ability to do so on our own. Since Love is a product of the will, Love isn't love unless it is given willingly. If we are made willing by what God knows then it isn't willingness.

For instance, if God knew from eternity past that John Q would commit adultery, is there any chance that he will not commit adultery?

Did God promise to provide a way of escape or not. He said he did but your analogy says He didn't.

I assume you will say No. Which leads to my question, how is that any different than what Calvinism teaches about this matter?

I disagree with your assumption. God's knowing is not a predestination to sin or do anything at all.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I agree with that Bob, but doesn't it make my point? That man can be "free" while having no other option than to do what God knows he will do.

I would not say he has no other option - I would say he chooses not to take the other option. Using language like "has no other option" is a paraphrase for "has no choice" and then it makes the sentence a kind of double-speak or self-conflicted statement saying "joe has free will in that he has no other option". That would be "nonsense".

But if we say "given all of Joe's options - Joe picks option A and God knew it all along" then the element of free will remains.

So in the case of Christ when he chooses to heal someone who says "IF you are willing you can make me whole" I do not say "God the Son had no other option so He healed the man".

Phrases like "had no option" and "had no choice" and asking "what MADE him chose option A" .. are
all the phrases of Calvinism designed against "free will".

Which is why - we almost never hear a Calvinist talking about the joy and freedom of "free will".

However the fact that you are willing to entertain that idea EVEN while knowing that God knows the future - means we are "Close" with at least "one Calvinist".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[gb93433]

God in his sovereignty created man with a free will.

Seems rather simple to me. Just like cattle in a pasture.

My parents had a dairy farm and each day we would go out to the pasture to get the cows in for milking. Each day they would go to the pasture we wanted them to go into but erach day they ate grass form the part of the pasture they chose or fought for.

Cattle have both--no choice regarding the pasture but choice to the spot of pasture to eat.

We do not have any choice in the way God created us but we can choose to follow Him. He extends grace to those who follow and those who do not. If he gave us what we deserved it would be different for those who follow Christ and those who do not. It rains on the righteous and unrighteous.

 

[gb93433]

The elect can sin. Sin is not God's will. He will not predestine anyone to do anything against His will. That is against who He is. We are predestined to be conformeed to the image of Christ.

 

[gb93433]

In response to the initial post:

God does not want conservative or liberal Christians. Both are lukewarm and complacent.

He wants radical Christians.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Did God promise to provide a way of escape or not. He said he did but your analogy says He didn't.

No it doesn't. There is a way of escape. The man refuses to take it.

This is the same thing Bob says when he says he has another option but chooses not to take it. That is exactly what I have said (and other calvinists) all along. Man is not forced to sin. He can choose at any time he wants to to not sin. But because of depravity, he will not choose that.

In the end, your position puts you in the same place we are; however, in your view, God is simply reactive, rather than proactive.

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Did God promise to provide a way of escape or not. He said he did but your analogy says He didn't.

No it doesn't. There is a way of escape. The man refuses to take it.

This is the same thing Bob says when he says he has another option but chooses not to take it. That is exactly what I have said (and other calvinists) all along. Man is not forced to sin. He can choose at any time he wants to to not sin. But because of depravity, he will not choose that.

In the end, your position puts you in the same place we are; however, in your view, God is simply reactive, rather than proactive. </font>[/QUOTE]Larry, do you Calvinists have brains? If so, why not try using it? How can you say: "Man is not forced to sin. He can choose at any time he wants to to not sin. But because of depravity, he will not choose that"? Based on what?

So, if a person who is not saved, was in a situation where he has the choice of getting into a relationship with someone else's wife, are you saying that he will always say yes? This is complete nonsense. I have non-Christian friends whose lives are more "godly" than many of the Christians I know. I am sure this is true all over the world. To argue that an unsaved person will always choose to sin, is inaccurate.

 

[Pastor Larry]

YOu know, Mike, personal attacks like "do you guys have brains" are not in your best interest. They do not further the substance of the discussion. Lift the conversation; don't drag it down.

How can you say: "Man is not forced to sin. He can choose at any time he wants to to not sin. But because of depravity, he will not choose that"? Based on what?

Because that is the teaching of Scripture.

So, if a person who is not saved, was in a situation where he has the choice of getting into a relationship with someone else's wife, are you saying that he will always say yes?

No, I said nothign of the kind. The discussion here was about God's knowledge. If God knows that a person will make that choice, can he change his mind and make another choice.

[quoteThis is complete nonsense.[/quote]You are correct. But since I didn't say that, it doesn't matter.

I have non-Christian friends whose lives are more "godly" than many of the Christians I know.

YOu might have unsaved friends who are more moral than a Christian, but certainly not more godly.

To argue that an unsaved person will always choose to sin, is inaccurate.

No it's not. It is what the Bible teaches. It doesn't say that every single choice will be inherently sinful, but because it springs from an unbelieving heart, it is a sinful choice. The real point of this is that an unsaved person will not choose to do anything differently than God knows he will do.

To get this back on the idea we were discussing, If God knows that someone will commit adultery, is there any chance he will not? In other words, If God knows something, does that make it impossible to choose otherwise?

 

[BobRyan]

Pastor Larry said -
This is the same thing Bob says when he says he has another option but chooses not to take it. That is exactly what I have said (and other calvinists) all along. Man is not forced to sin. He can choose at any time he wants to to not sin. But because of depravity, he will not choose that.

This is "kinda true" if you consider man "without God doing anything" (as if God can be removed from the equation). But If we consider that isolated state - then as Romans 3 points out -- man is not really free and in fact HAS NO other option but to sin for "he CAN not obey God's law" (as Romans 8 says).

So that is NOT free will - it is Romans 6 "Slavery" it is Eph -2 "SLAVERY" it is bondage -- it is no free will at all.

In the end, your position puts you in the same place we are;

Only to the extent that you are successful in removing God from the equation. But as soon as we consider the "God-factor" that is always present - that SUPERNATURALLY DRAWS ALL MANKIND - then man DOES have choice and is NOT limited to slavery to sin.

I.E. Arminianism!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Frogman]

Larry, do you Calvinists have brains? If so, why not try using it? How can you say: "Man is not forced to sin. He can choose at any time he wants to to not sin. But because of depravity, he will not choose that"? Based on what?[\QUOTE]

Based on the whole of scripture. Man is in bondage to his depravity.

So, if a person who is not saved, was in a situation where he has the choice of getting into a relationship with someone else's wife, are you saying that he will always say yes? This is complete nonsense. I have non-Christian friends whose lives are more "godly" than many of the Christians I know. I am sure this is true all over the world. To argue that an unsaved person will always choose to sin, is inaccurate. [\QUOTE]

There are some who would despise such a sin as you are describing, yet would indulge in some other. There is a sin which is particular to each of us, for some this may be the scenario you provide, for others it may be drunkeness, lieing, etc. Calvinism does not deny man can be/exhibit morality in individuals. What is denied is that man's morality can lift him to the degree of righteousness that is above the righteousness of the pharisees; this accomplishment requires the righteousness of God which is Christ. To be lifted to this position, one must be born again. The order is taught clearly by Christ and throughout scripture. We each in our natural condition have no knowledge of our disease, we naturally will not seek a physician because we perceive no illness.

I have non-Christian friends whose lives are more "godly" than many of the Christians I know. I am sure this is true all over the world.

This is a very important point. Give this truth some serious thought.

Ask yourself the following:

What constitutes a Christian? [Romans 10]

How is a tree known?

How can a 'lost' person exhibit godliness when that person, theologically is defined as separated from God.

Sin is what separates from God, so what requirement do "we" hang over men to 'outwardly' reconcile them?

Often, we assume too much, we hang too much, on a profession, a decision, without doubt, this confession of Christ is very important, but personal salvation, the personal knowledge of the blessed hope is a heart work first, always and in every case.

A Debtor to Free Grace,
Bro. Dallas

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Larry;

This is the same thing Bob says when he says he has another option but chooses not to take it. That is exactly what I have said (and other calvinists) all along. Man is not forced to sin. He can choose at any time he wants to to not sin. But because of depravity, he will not choose that.

Man isn't depraved and the Bible never says that he is. Man is a sinner no doubt about that,even after he is saved he is still a sinner. If man has no opition but to sin as you claim and is predestined according to God's foreknowledge to do so. He is forced simply because he has no escape. You clearly said so in this statement below;

That man can be "free" while having no other option than to do what God knows he will do.

If man has no other option then he has no choice and if he has no choice he has no means of escape. In order to have the option of escape he must be able to do so. You said above he has "no other option". Yet you claim he is "free" What kind of freedom is it when you have no choice.
Then you say;

He can choose at any time he wants to to not sin. But because of depravity, he will not choose that.

If man is unable or unwilling to choose the escape because he can't choose it then he has no choice.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
How can you say: "Man is not forced to sin. He can choose at any time he wants to to not sin. But because of depravity, he will not choose that"? Based on what?

Because that is the teaching of Scripture.


1 Timothy 5:20, "Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

So God has no bearing on your life? He just does it all and you sit by and watch and do nothing? If that is the case why are you preaching?

If that were the case then why all the imperatives in scripture? God wouldn't need a preacher either or does scripture lie when I read Romans 10:12-15, "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!"

So is scripture a lie when it declares a preacher is needed. Somehow I see God working with man and not totally independent of man nor is man independent of God.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Bro Dallas;

What constitutes a Christian?

Romans 10:9

How is a tree known?

By it's fruit.

How can a 'lost' person exhibit godliness when that person, theologically is defined as separated from God.

He can't but then he doesn't need to exhibit Godliness to accept a free gift all he has to do is trust because first we must trust Christ.
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Often, we assume too much, we hang too much, on a profession, a decision, without doubt, this confession of Christ is very important, but personal salvation, the personal knowledge of the blessed hope is a heart work first, always and in every case.

I disagree believing in Christ is the work of God.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
It isn't mans work. We believe because God convicts and convinces us. It is God that does this work. It does not take Godliness to believe it takes Godliness to walk the walk.
May Christ Shine His Light On us all;
Mike

 

[Frogman]

I disagree believing in Christ is the work of God.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
It isn't mans work. We believe because God convicts and convinces us. It is God that does this work. It does not take Godliness to believe it takes Godliness to walk the walk.
May Christ Shine His Light On us all;
Mike

Re-read my post, I think we are in agreement on this point.

All is a heart work, begun and finished by God.

Yes, I am in agreement with your stated understanding of John 6:28-29.

a debtor to Free Grace,
Bro. Dallas

 

[Pastor Larry]

Only to the extent that you are successful in removing God from the equation.

I haven't removed God from the equation. To the contrary, I am trying to figure out how God fits in to yours. You are missing the question. Here it is again: If God know Joe will commit adultery, is there any chance Joe will not commit adultery? Or has God's knowledge rendered Joe's choice certain before Joe ever faces the temptation?

But as soon as we consider the "God-factor" that is always present - that SUPERNATURALLY DRAWS ALL MANKIND

I am uncomfortable calling God a "factor" ... But if he supernaturally draws all mankind, then all would come. John 6:44 says that all that the Father draws will come and will be raised up. Your position leads to universalism. It also seems to contradict what Christ says in John 6, that some could not come because the FAther hadn't given it to them to come.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Man isn't depraved and the Bible never says that he is.

Man is depraved and the Bible says that (Eph 2; Rom 3; Eph 4; etc.)

Yet you claim he is "free" What kind of freedom is it when you have no choice.

That is exactly what I am asking you. If God knows from eternity past that Joe will commit adultery this week, does Joe really have a choice? Isn't it determined? (Or was God's knowledge wrong?)

If man is unable or unwilling to choose the escape because he can't choose it then he has no choice.

He has teh choice to do what he wants to do. He wants to sin.

But again, don't get bogged down in peripheral things. Focus on the real question here: If God knows from eternity past that Joe will commit adultery this week, does Joe really have a choice? Isn't it determined? (Or was God's knowledge wrong?)

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

Larry, I think that you have lost the plot!

Just because "God knows" something, does NOT mean that He has "preordained" it? Even though this is the nonsense that Calvinism teaches. If this were the case, then adultery cannot be sin, as we would only be doing the things that God has preordained we do. How can God punish us for doing His will?
______________________

Post edited to remove quote. Once again, folks, quote only the portion you are referring to. Do not quote the whole thing.

[ April 28, 2005, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Larry;

But again, don't get bogged down in peripheral things. Focus on the real question here: If God knows from eternity past that Joe will commit adultery this week, does Joe really have a choice? Isn't it determined? (Or was God's knowledge wrong?)

Maybe you missed my point which directly answers this question. What God knows does not have any predestined effect on the out come of my life. Simply because God reacts towards me according to my actions as in Jeremiah 18 he has two plans available according to how I live my life. He doesn't live it for me. Just as he did for the Israelites in Jeremiah 18. We are all still clay in the potters hand. We have not been fired or set. If we turn from evil our lifes destination will change.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

So God has no bearing on your life? He just does it all and you sit by and watch and do nothing? If that is the case why are you preaching?

You said this in response to me, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why. This has absolutely no bearing on anything I said. I believe God does have bearing on our lives. I don't think we just sit around and do nothing. I preach because that is how God's bearing is brought on our lives.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Just because "God knows" something, does NOT mean that He has "preordained" it? Even though this is the nonsense that Calvinism teaches. If this were the case, then adultery cannot be sin, as we would only be doing the things that God has preordained we do. How can God punish us for doing His will?

Interesting you should ask that, because that is precisely the question Paul anticipates in Rom 9. He answer it as I would: Who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall the thing formed say to the one who formed it, why have you made me this way?

But more to the point, you have missed the point. I wasn't asking about foreordination. I was asking about choices. Why do you refuse to answer that question? Are you afraid of where it will lead you?

Once again: If God knows that Joe will commit adultery, can Joe choose not to? Yes or No