The devil wants us fighting about this...why?

[icthus]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Just because "God knows" something, does NOT mean that He has "preordained" it? Even though this is the nonsense that Calvinism teaches. If this were the case, then adultery cannot be sin, as we would only be doing the things that God has preordained we do. How can God punish us for doing His will?

Interesting you should ask that, because that is precisely the question Paul anticipates in Rom 9. He answer it as I would: Who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall the thing formed say to the one who formed it, why have you made me this way?

But more to the point, you have missed the point. I wasn't asking about foreordination. I was asking about choices. Why do you refuse to answer that question? Are you afraid of where it will lead you?

Once again: If God knows that Joe will commit adultery, can Joe choose not to? Yes or No </font>[/QUOTE]If God "foresees" an event, the it will happen, as He cannot foresee something that will not happen? What is your point though?

 

[BobRyan]

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Yet you claim he is "free" What kind of freedom is it when you have no choice.
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Pastor Larry said --
That is exactly what I am asking you. If God knows from eternity past that Joe will commit adultery this week, does Joe really have a choice? Isn't it determined? (Or was God's knowledge wrong?)

We are as free as God is to choose to do what HE knows He is going to do.

We are as free as Christ was to heal someone or to refuse to heal someone (as in the case of Nazareth or at His trial) or to yield EVEN while praying "please let this cup pass from Me".

God KNOWS the future like it was yesterday.

The reason we can not say God's foreknowledge works in such a way as to limit free will (which would include HIS OWN free will and God the Son's etc) is that for us to know for sure that God's foreknowledge stops HIS ability to have free will - we would have to "BE God".

That same point holds for free will in general. To claim that we fully understand how God's foreknowledge works -- to the point of saying it stops free will - we would have to "BE God" and have foreknowledge of that kind. Then we could see how it fully stops God from having free will, stops Christ, stops all the sinless beings of heaven (after all choosing option-A today is still NOT choosing-option-B as God KNEW all along--- no matter who you are).

This is the point where Calvinism often gets stuck.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Pastor Larry]

If God "foresees" an event, the it will happen, as He cannot foresee something that will not happen? What is your point though?

Both of you guys keep missing the point and are refusing to answer the question. Is it because you know where it will lead and you don't want to go there?

You are right that God's knowledge is infallible, that he knows the future like it was yesterday.

Answer this question with a simple yes or no: If God knows that Joe will commit adultery, can Joe choose not to? Yes or No

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Larry;

Both of you guys keep missing the point and are refusing to answer the question. Is it because you know where it will lead and you don't want to go there?

I've been there and it doesn't scare me at all. While I agree that God knows the future this does not mean it is unalterably predestined to be. If what you are saying is true then you must realize that this means that God predestines even our sin thus we can't do anything else, because He knows we will. This destroys the escape he has provided for us from sin. This theory is the product of men's own logic not God's. The Bible never says that because God knows abouts our actions we can't do anything else.
In our conversation on this you never commented on what Jeremiah 18 actually said.

YOu know, Mike, personal attacks like "do you guys have brains" are not in your best interest. They do not further the substance of the discussion. Lift the conversation; don't drag it down.

What are you talking about?
Is this directed to me? because I made no such comment .
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[PamelaK]

Didn't all Joe's hemming and hawing and choosing go on BEFORE he made the decision to commit adultery? If God knows that Joe will commit adultery, doesn't that mean that's the final choice/decision that Joe will make?

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by PamelaK:
Didn't all Joe's hemming and hawing and choosing go on BEFORE he made the decision to commit adultery? If God knows that Joe will commit adultery, doesn't that mean that's the final choice/decision that Joe will make?

What is the point here? I don't know if you are a Calvinist? But, for all Calvinists I think that you fail to understand the difference between God'd "Foreknowledge", and "Foreordaining". It is very obvious, that because God knows all things, from eternity to eternity, that all events are preknown to Him. This does NOT allow for the Calvinistic heresy, that "God preordains" all our actions. I will ask this question once again. If God did preordain all things, this would have to include our sinful actions. In which case God simply cannot, in justice, find us guilty for our sinful actions, since all we are doing is actually carrying out what He Himself has preordained we do. We are then like a bunch of machines, that do what we are made to. In which case God becomes the author of sin. No fancy theology can escape this fact.

 

[PamelaK]

I'm just saying if God knows something is going to happen, it's because it's going to happen. Joe sins because Joe decides to sin. God knows Joe will decide to sin because He has foreknowledge. Hope that makes it clearer.
I haven't really been involved in this topic, but that last post had caught my eye.

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by PamelaK:
I'm just saying if God knows something is going to happen, it's because it's going to happen. Joe sins because Joe decides to sin. God knows Joe will decide to sin because He has foreknowledge. Hope that makes it clearer.
I haven't really been involved in this topic, but that last post had caught my eye.

Thanks for clearing this up

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi PamelaK;

Didn't all Joe's hemming and hawing and choosing go on BEFORE he made the decision to commit adultery? If God knows that Joe will commit adultery, doesn't that mean that's the final choice/decision that Joe will make?

Question 1;
If Joe did so yes
Question two;
If so then it wipes out any chance for man to escape temptation. God promised to provide a way of escape from temptation if we are unalterably predestined to sin then we have no escape. This is only mans clever defense of an idea of men it is not scriptural. Sort of like can God create a rock so big He can't pick it up.
May Christ Shine His Light On us all;
Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

While I agree that God knows the future this does not mean it is unalterably predestined to be.

Really? So God can know the future, but the future might be altered? If so, then wouldn't God's knowledge be wrong?

The Bible never says that because God knows abouts our actions we can't do anything else.

So God's knowledge of our actions might be wrong, if we choose to do something else?

In our conversation on this you never commented on what Jeremiah 18 actually said.

I don't know what there is to comment on. I don't think Jer 18 has anyhting really to do with this ...

This is about whether God's knowledge can be wrong. I don't think it can be.

You are misdirecting when you talk about the difference between foreknowledge and foreordination. Assuming for the moment that such a distinction is valid (I don't think it is), but assuming that it is ... so what? If God's knowledge is infallible, is there any chance that Joe will change his mind and not commit adultery?

 

[BobRyan]

jPator Larry said --
You are right that God's knowledge is infallible, that he knows the future like it was yesterday.

Answer this question with a simple yes or no: If God knows that Joe will commit adultery, can Joe choose not to? Yes or No

YES!

But Joe CHOOSES not to make that choice - of his own free will - granted to him By God.

And of course JESUS and GOD are in the SAME BOAT as Joe!! (As we all agree) when it comes to "GOD KNOWING" except in their case -- it is even worse!

I keep posting that -- Why is this so difficult for you to see the answer?

You don't have to agree with it -- just show "in the details" how you get out of it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Pastor Larry]

Bob,

Think about what you just said: God knows Joe will commit adultery, but Joe can choose not to. So if he chooses not to, then God's knowledge was incorrect meaning God is not omniscient.

Is that really what you mean to say?

 

[webdog]

quote:
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While I agree that God knows the future this does not mean it is unalterably predestined to be.
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&lt;&lt;Really? So God can know the future, but the future might be altered? If so, then wouldn't God's knowledge be wrong?&gt;&gt;

Were there not times that God changed His mind throughout the Bible? Was God just "pretending" to do the things He promised, or did He REALLY change His course of action?

 

[Pastor Larry]

God did not change his mind. He said "I am hte Lord; I do not change." There are times that God appeared to change because of what he said he would do. For instance, he promised to destroy Nineveh, based on teh condition of Nineveh. He did not destroy Nineveh because Nineveh repented.

 

[Pastor Larry]

f so then it wipes out any chance for man to escape temptation. God promised to provide a way of escape from temptation if we are unalterably predestined to sin then we have no escape.

The fact that man does not use the way of escape doesn't mean taht it isn't there. But so far, you really haven't answered the questions.

If God knows X will happen, is there any chance that X won't happen?

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
God did not change his mind. He said "I am hte Lord; I do not change." There are times that God appeared to change because of what he said he would do. For instance, he promised to destroy Nineveh, based on teh condition of Nineveh. He did not destroy Nineveh because Nineveh repented.

Larry, were all the people of the city of Nineveh elect? It appears from the account that they were all saved.

 

[Pastor Larry]

We have no way of knowing whether all the people of Nineveh were elect. The repentance was wide enough to forestall judgment.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
God did not change his mind. He said "I am hte Lord; I do not change." There are times that God appeared to change because of what he said he would do. For instance, he promised to destroy Nineveh, based on teh condition of Nineveh. He did not destroy Nineveh because Nineveh repented.

Would God have destroyed Nineveh if the people had not repented? Because God said "I am the Lord; I do not change", does that mean He does not change His judgements, or that as Lord, HE does not change? What about Sodom where He would have spared the city if only a handful of people were found to be righteous?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
If God knows X will happen, is there any chance that X won't happen?

Nope.

That is true of Him knowing about the 2nd coming AND of His knowing every decision Christ would ever make.

No chance that He is wrong.

Pretty tough to "BE God"

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Think about what you just said: God knows Joe will commit adultery, but Joe can choose not to. So if he chooses not to, then God's knowledge was incorrect meaning God is not omniscient.

Is that really what you mean to say?

I did not find that quote from my post.

The "So if" is the part where we "imagine" we are God and trying to figure out just how much "free will" There is left for HIM --

IF He knows WHEN He will have the second coming - but then decides to do it a day later -- was He really omniscient??

Pretty tough to "BE God" - huh.

In Christ,

Bob