The Difference between Adventists and the SDB.

[BobRyan]

Ben,

There are two primary points in the doctrine. One is the reality of a judgment future to Paul's day as we see in Romans 2 and that is also pre-advent judgment as we see in places like Rev 14 and Daniel 7.

Establishing the "date" for that judgment is done in Daniel 7, 8 and 9.

Daniel 7 establishes the fact of that judgment.

Daniel 8 points to a time-ruler a timespan (2300 years) whose end would mark the start of that Daniel 7 judgment.

And Daniel 9 gives the start date for that timespan. The first 70weeks-of-years - i.e. the first 490 years (70x7) of that 2300 year time span.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Ben W:
Gidday, I Can see what you are both driving at with the Investagative doctrine. I am not convinced of how the actual date of 1844 fits into the doctrine though. That is something that never can be proven from the Bible (The Date). Yet it is to be assumed as correct. It is that very idea that I disagree on.

However I would like to point out to all those following this thread, that these disagreements again are not over "Salvation Issues". And SDA and SDB agree on alot more than they disagree on.

Thanks for pointing that out Ben, I was just about to say that!

Ok, on the date:

Tell me what you are having difficulty with. I am going to see if I can help you. I had trouble with this doctrine myself, when I first encountered it, and I had to REALLY tear it apart to see what it was all about. Here is what I came up with:

The prophecy is given in Daniel 8.
13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
15. And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

This prophecy is the whole time given, and the 70 weeks are part of the 2300 day prophecy.

The 70 weeks are in Daniel 9.

24. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The 70 weeks, or 490 years, are the beginning of the 2300 total days/ years.

Now for the 'abra cadabra math'.

7 weeks- Command given and time to complete it. 49 years exactly from 457 BCE to 408 BCE.

62 weeks- from completion of rebuilding to Messiah the Prince. 434 years exactly from 408 BCE to 27 CE, when Jesus was Annointed and began His ministry.

Final week- Began when Jesus was Baptized in 27 CE and ended in 34 CE when Stephen was stoned and the Gospel went out to the Gentiles. The event that took place in the 'midst' of that last week, was the Crusifixtion which put an end to sacrifice and offerings, that was 31 CE.

SO quick run down.

457 BCE Command
408 BCE Completion
27 CE Jesus Annointed
31 CE Jesus Crucified
34 CE Stephen stoned

457 BCE to 34 CE is 490 years. (there is no year zero)
The 70 weeks that were determined for the people of Israel ENDED in 34 CE when the Gospel went out to the Gentiles.

Starting from 457 BCE and counting 2300 years, brings us to 1844, when we see the Sanctuary is cleansed. This is where we see, the literal Day of Atonement, that is foreshadowed through the OT.

How is that confusing? HAHAHA. It took me a few HOURS to get all those dates to make sense to me. The no year zero threw me big time, and counting backwards and then forwards threw me too!

Just look at it for a minute or two, right after reading the passages in Daniel 7-9.

God Bless

*disclaimer* anyone who reads this, please do not hijack this thread to discuss tribulatory doctrines. If you want to talk about this stuff, start another thread. THANKS!!

 

[Ben W]

I suppose it is in my suscpisious nature, after being taken in by both the Toronto Blessing movement and the Word of Faith movement in the Pentecostal church I used to attend, that makes me very skeptical of any type of prophecy after the bible type teaching, not that yours is neccesaraly wrong.

The point that occurs to me is that the dat of Jesus birth is not neccesaraly clear. Our calender says 0, Yet there is evidence to suggest cases for fifteen or so years on either side, although my personal opinion is that 5 AD is close to the truth.

I really find it hard to take as a doctrine with a nominated date. But that is on the basis of what has gone on with the same idea in other churches.

 

[BobRyan]

The exact date of Jesus' birth is not something that we can find with accuracy as far as I know.

But the date of His death is pretty certain. We also know that he was killed ON Passover - as the Passover Lamb of God AND we know that his ministry lasted 3.5 years and takes us to the middle of the 70th week of years in Daniel 9. That is really all that is needed to work out the dates in Daniel 9.

Once you have that start date rock-solid. You have the first 490 years of the 2300 year prophecy in Daniel 8 clearly identified.

And once you have that - you have a pointer to the start of the judgment identified in Daniel 7.

The other interesting fact is that Passover comes 6 months after the Day of Atonement. So 3.5 years into the last 7 years of Daniel 9 is on Passover.

Christ died on Passover. The messiah was "cut off" at that point.

That means each of the year boundaries in the 490 year prophecy of Daniel 9 (and by extension - the 2300 year prophecy of Daniel 8) are on the Day of Atonement.

Basically understanding the entire set of prophecies in Daniel 7, 8 and 9 hinges on the death of Christ.

(go figure).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Ben W:
I suppose it is in my suscpisious nature, after being taken in by both the Toronto Blessing movement and the Word of Faith movement in the Pentecostal church I used to attend, that makes me very skeptical of any type of prophecy after the bible type teaching, not that yours is neccesaraly wrong.

The point that occurs to me is that the dat of Jesus birth is not neccesaraly clear. Our calender says 0, Yet there is evidence to suggest cases for fifteen or so years on either side, although my personal opinion is that 5 AD is close to the truth.

I really find it hard to take as a doctrine with a nominated date. But that is on the basis of what has gone on with the same idea in other churches.

Not that it is important to this discussion, but there is no clear indication in the Bible as to the Birth of Christ, which makes ME wonder why so many 'celebrate' His birth. If God wanted us to celebrate it, why didn't He make it clear when it occurred?

HOWEVER, He DID make it clear when Jesus was annointed, which is the starting point for His 'covenant week' with Israel.

We DO know when that occurred, due to the leaders in 'office' at the time, and the history that shows us the time. AND it's relation to the beginning of the prophecy with the 'command' to rebuild.

It was 27AD.

You could also just look at the Crusifixtion. WE know when that was.

31 AD. Passover. There is no question to that date.

Start there.

This fulfillment, is SO clear. God made it clear so that those who EARNESTLY seek understanding with the 'ear' of the Spirit, would find what He has for us to know.

Prayerfully consider.

I understand your fears of further deception. I have been through too many denominations that had me 'duped' into believing lies. That is why I took the doctrines that were presented to me when I learned the Sabbath truth, and was learning about the other doctrines of the SDA Movement, and STUDIED those doctrines to pieces! I left no leaf unturned.

There is no doubt in my mind.

This is true.

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

What happened to Ben?

 

[Claudia]

TO EVERYONE:

What hrhema said about my church denomination's beliefs really pains me. I ask that you all please go take time to read these chapters online of a book written by Ellen G White. You will find out what we actually believe about the Investigative Judgment instead of just conjecturing about it.

http://www.egwestate.andrews.edu/gc/gc18.html

read on through to chapter 28 please (from chapter 18-chapter 28)


In addition, I also request that you go to the following page online and read the truth about Ellen White instead of the falsehoods.
http://www.egwestate.andrews.edu/issues/issues.html


I cant tell you how many times I have gone to websites that publish these outright lies about our church. They will misquote, tell half of the truth and leave out things that really occured, etc. The reason? it is because of our stance against the Roman Catholic religion and it is also because we advocate keeping the law and the 7th day Sabbath. Instead of honest investigation of what we believe and about things that have been said and done, these attackers endeavor to publish all sorts of falsehoods... because they realize that the average person out there will just believe whatever they read, without any further investigation.

The thing someone said about a pitcure of Ellen White eating pork makes me laugh

... first of all, how is a picture supposed to make us know it was pork? Is there a big pig on a table with an apple stuck in it's mouth? Besides that, the light was revealed to our church in degrees at a time. The light about how detrimental pork was and also other certain meats was something that was revealed at a later date in time.

Thank you,

Claudia

 

[Ben W]

Never Fear, Bens still Here

My work is busy at present, so webtime is dramatically down.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Ben W:
Never Fear, Bens still Here

My work is busy at present, so webtime is dramatically down.

There you are!