The Difference between the Rapture and Second Coming

[Marcia]

Agreed, but the standard take on Romans 2 is that Paul describes a path to justification that zero persons will take (a very odd thing to do indeed) and then, in chapter 3 and beyond, explains how it is that zero persons will indeed be justified that way. That argument has 2 glaring flaws.

First, in Romans 2, Paul gives us no reason at all to suppose that zero persons will be justified by the "good works" that their lives manifest. In fact, he emphasizes three times - people will be justified by the good works that are manifested in their lives. He never evenly remotely hints that he thinks zero people will meet such a standard - you have to read that in.

But Paul does make the case later in Romans that zero people will be justified by works, so I am not reading that into the text.

And, second, the argument for asserting that Paul intends us to understand that zero persons will be justified by "good works", is based on a misreading of Paul's denial of "justification by works". In each case, whether it be Romans 3 or Ephesians 3, the context clearly shows that he is talking about how the works of Torah do not justify. This is really quite clear in both Ephesians 2 and Romans 3.

So, we do not have to conclude that Paul is being obscure and misleading in Romans 2 (i.e. saying three times that there will be people saved by good works but intending the reader to understand that there are zero such persons) because his later denials of "justification by works" are really statements about the Torah, not the category of good works.

Whether it's works of the Torah or other works, no one is justified by works. We are justified by faith: "And Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness" (OT and Galatians).

I

am not sure why you need to ask me to be "upfront". But in any event, I have been crystal clear in both this post and others: The good works that indeed will justify us as Paul plainly asserts in Romans 2 are not the good works of the morally self-righteous. They are instead the works of the Holy Spirit, given purely by grace, to the person who does nothing more than place faith in Jesus.

And while Romans 3 does indeed assert that all are sinners, this is a description of the state of the person without the Spirit. Romans 3 is a timeline and the careful reader should note that the material in the first bit of chapter 3 - the stuff about all being sinners and incapable of being justified - occurs before this important statement:

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify

The Greek here for "now" is "in the present time. So indeed, without the action of Christ on the cross, no person can manifest the works needed to pass the Romans 2 judgement.

Justification happens instantly upon faith in Christ; it has nothing to do with works. Works follow faith but they do not justify anyone.

 

[Andre]

Hello Marcia:

While I would be happy to continue the "works" debate - I am quite convinced the "standard" reformation view is wrong - I will elect to discontinue the discussion because this thread is about the issue of the rapture. I am sure the "works" issue will come up in other threads.

 

[Andre]

Double post - my apologies

 

[Andre]

While I am not 100 % convinced, I definitely lean toward believing there will be no rapture of any kind - in the sense of people being taken up into heaven.

The one thing that I am quite convinced is mistaken is the notion that our eternal destiny is in Heaven. I think the scriptures clearly indicate that the final home of the redeemed is a remade and re-transformed earth.

Part of the problem with "rapture theology" is that it tends to endorse the "earth is a bad place to be escapted from" view when, in fact, God is going to redeem all creation and the saints will live there forever.

But I admit that one can indeed hold the view that we will be raptured away temporarily. While I am inclined to think that view is wrong, at least it does not do the great damage of the view that "we leave earth for good".

 

[Marcia]

While I am not 100 % convinced, I definitely lean toward believing there will be no rapture of any kind - in the sense of people being taken up into heaven.

The one thing that I am quite convinced is mistaken is the notion that our eternal destiny is in Heaven. I think the scriptures clearly indicate that the final home of the redeemed is a remade and re-transformed earth.

Part of the problem with "rapture theology" is that it tends to endorse the "earth is a bad place to be escapted from" view when, in fact, God is going to redeem all creation and the saints will live there forever.

But I admit that one can indeed hold the view that we will be raptured away temporarily. While I am inclined to think that view is wrong, at least it does not do the great damage of the view that "we leave earth for good".

I don't think the idea of the rapture is to escape earth so much as it is seen as deliverance from the Tribulation.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Thesis:
"Whether it's works of the Torah or other works, no one is justified by works. We are justified by faith: "And Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness" (OT and Galatians)."

GE
Truth, sure! Yet even 'faith' not as a work, but as Grace! There are MILLIONS of people claiming to be Christians who BOAST, THEIR, WORK, of 'faith' or 'believing'. That kind of 'faith' neither justifies nor saves but is as fruitless and vain as ANY 'works of the Tora' Andre is talking about. 'Faith' that as the doing of man is supposed to save him, is and shall be the cause of his destruction!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

While I am not 100 % convinced, I definitely lean toward believing there will be no rapture of any kind - in the sense of people being taken up into heaven.

The one thing that I am quite convinced is mistaken is the notion that our eternal destiny is in Heaven. I think the scriptures clearly indicate that the final home of the redeemed is a remade and re-transformed earth.

Part of the problem with "rapture theology" is that it tends to endorse the "earth is a bad place to be escapted from" view when, in fact, God is going to redeem all creation and the saints will live there forever.

But I admit that one can indeed hold the view that we will be raptured away temporarily. While I am inclined to think that view is wrong, at least it does not do the great damage of the view that "we leave earth for good".

GE:
It's encouraging to find something solid to agree on with you, Andre; why did you spoil it with that last sentence of yours. Why can't you accept there is not the least indication in the Scriptures of a 'rapture'? Do you think a fair God will act like a 'rapture' would imply? It's a blasphemous thought, and I wish the honest and sincere Christians who adhere to that view, might see how bad it is.

 

[Andre]

I don't think the idea of the rapture is to escape earth so much as it is seen as deliverance from the Tribulation.

Fair enough, and while I do not think Paul ever intends us to think that any rapture of any kind willl occur, if there is a "temporary" rapture, followed by return to earth, then at least this is consistent with the overall Scriptural picture.

 

[Andre]

GE:
It's encouraging to find something solid to agree on with you, Andre; why did you spoil it with that last sentence of yours. Why can't you accept there is not the least indication in the Scriptures of a 'rapture'? Do you think a fair God will act like a 'rapture' would imply? It's a blasphemous thought, and I wish the honest and sincere Christians who adhere to that view, might see how bad it is.

As I have said, I do not believe any rapture of any kind will occur. However, with appropriate humility, I am not 100 % convinced yet of the correctness of "anti-rapture" arguments.

I am concerned that some readers approach 1 Thess 4 "out of the blue" - unaware of the deep knowledge Paul had of the Old Testament and his inclination to draw on Old Testament themes. In probable agreement with you, I think the 1 Thess 4 image of being "snatched up into heaven" is a misreading, based on a failure of the reader to be aware of material from Daniel 7, and some relevant history about the practice of people of that time to come out of the city to greet the approaching emperor, and then follow him back into the city. I trust the relevance of this to 1 Thess 4 is clear.

So I would say that Paul is not intending his readers to understand that people are being taken up into heaven. I think he is constructing an elaborate metaphor. And if we are not knowledgeable about the Old Testament allusions, and the cultural practices of the day, we can miss it.

 

[Goldie]

As I have said, I do not believe any rapture of any kind will occur.

Well, if that's your way of thinking, you're in direct contradiction to what the Bible has to say:

Isaiah 26:19-21
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, [6] and shall no more cover her slain.

Verse 19 - depicts the resurrection of the dead
Verse 20 - depicts a pre-tribulation rapture
Verse 21 - tells us about the ensuing Tribulation

Clearly a rapture, and a pre-trib one at that. I urge to change your way of thinking and look for the Blessed Hope, which is our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

 

[Andre]

Well, if that's your way of thinking, you're in direct contradiction to what the Bible has to say:

Let's look at the text you provided. I hope you do not mind if I use the NASB. Here is Isaiah 26:19-21:

19 Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise
You who lie in the dust, (AL)awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
20Come, my people, enter into your rooms
and close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.
21For behold, the LORD is about to (AP)come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain

Verse 19 is about the resurrection of the dead. I assume that you take verse 20 to be an allusion to taking saints away from the earth during "the tribulation. This text indeed is consistent with such a view, but in no way strongly suggests such a position, over and against other interpretations - you really have to come to this text already committed to believing in a rapture in order to draw the conclusion that you have drawn.

There is no doubt - at a first reading, this text does work with the rapture position. But the connection is not so strong that other interpretations are ruled out. It certainly is an interesting text, though.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Well, if that's your way of thinking, you're in direct contradiction to what the Bible has to say:

Isaiah 26:19-21
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, [6] and shall no more cover her slain.

Verse 19 - depicts the resurrection of the dead
Verse 20 - depicts a pre-tribulation rapture
Verse 21 - tells us about the ensuing Tribulation

Clearly a rapture, and a pre-trib one at that. I urge to change your way of thinking and look for the Blessed Hope, which is our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

GE:
Ag please!! You see what you want to see so you seeee it in there; and is blind to what you do not want to see!

All three the verses refer to the judgment day of Christ's 'second coming' and the resurrection of all to be judged: the just to find refuge in their Substitute, and the unjust to receive reward for their unrighteousness.