Yes, but just shows that we can see as all right what we prefer, but judge all others!
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The difference between unions and associations of Christian Baptists.
- Thread starter Strannik
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Strannik, I have a question for you
Here in the USA, our Baptist churches often have pot luck dinners after church.
(pot luck means each family brings a couple of dishes, weather it is meat, vegetable, deserts, potatoes, ect) and most of the time we end up with twice as much that is needed. So many eat way too much - some gets thrown away - some goes home with others.)
We like to joke that a Good Baptist church always has plenty of food and we always take up an offering.
So, my question - do the Baptist churches in Russia - have "pot-luck" suppers and if so, with lots of food".
Would be great if you could visit the USA and attend some of our Baptist churches!
Here in the USA, our Baptist churches often have pot luck dinners after church.
(pot luck means each family brings a couple of dishes, weather it is meat, vegetable, deserts, potatoes, ect) and most of the time we end up with twice as much that is needed. So many eat way too much - some gets thrown away - some goes home with others.)
We like to joke that a Good Baptist church always has plenty of food and we always take up an offering.
So, my question - do the Baptist churches in Russia - have "pot-luck" suppers and if so, with lots of food".
Would be great if you could visit the USA and attend some of our Baptist churches!
My wife and I twice visited Mother Russia , in Moscow, in order to adopt our 2 boys, and would honestly not desire to trust a "pot luck" over there! Might be Ok with plenty of Vodka, beverage of choice over there!
First, THANK YOU, Squire R, for sending me Mr. Fall's translation of their statement of faith. I have read it closely.
However, there are several things in it that I disagree with.
The first is that leaving off childbearing is a sin. A couple should NOT deliberately try to have more kids than they can properly raise. They must have enough ATTENTION to go around for each one. They must have enough money to meet their needs & provide food, clothes, shelter, & medical care.
Next is the manner of dress. If a person cannot afford the best clothes, is he/she thus a sinner? If a person received tattoos all over before being saved, does that keep a person in sin? According to the dictates of the consciences of some members of our church, they believe in dressing to the nines when attending a service, while others, such as myself, only believe we should be clean & neat. (On 2 occasions, while I was a volunteer fireman, I hurried to church after fighting structure fires, in soiled clothes that smelled like soot. I stood in the back of the bldg. so as not to stink out others with fire odor.)
As for women covering their heads, this is the USA, not the Middle East, & most women don't cover their heads for anything, but again, it's "each according to the dictates of one's own conscience", & we should respect their decisions either way.
However, there are several things in it that I disagree with.
The first is that leaving off childbearing is a sin. A couple should NOT deliberately try to have more kids than they can properly raise. They must have enough ATTENTION to go around for each one. They must have enough money to meet their needs & provide food, clothes, shelter, & medical care.
Next is the manner of dress. If a person cannot afford the best clothes, is he/she thus a sinner? If a person received tattoos all over before being saved, does that keep a person in sin? According to the dictates of the consciences of some members of our church, they believe in dressing to the nines when attending a service, while others, such as myself, only believe we should be clean & neat. (On 2 occasions, while I was a volunteer fireman, I hurried to church after fighting structure fires, in soiled clothes that smelled like soot. I stood in the back of the bldg. so as not to stink out others with fire odor.)
As for women covering their heads, this is the USA, not the Middle East, & most women don't cover their heads for anything, but again, it's "each according to the dictates of one's own conscience", & we should respect their decisions either way.
You're welcome.
Now as to your concerns.
The first arises from this section:
As a rule, the Christian family has many children. Deviation from child-bearing is a sin. God
gives life to a man and defines its duration (Job 10:8-12, Psalm 137:13-16). Children in the
family are a precious gift from God (Psalm 125:3). Couples who are faithful to God receive
children from the hand of God, by His discretion (Psalm 126:3-4, Isa. 29:23). (page 17)
I think the categoricalness of the statement comes from a reaction to the Soviet system of birth control. Also, note the last sentence of the section.gives life to a man and defines its duration (Job 10:8-12, Psalm 137:13-16). Children in the
family are a precious gift from God (Psalm 125:3). Couples who are faithful to God receive
children from the hand of God, by His discretion (Psalm 126:3-4, Isa. 29:23). (page 17)
As for your second concern, I'm not sure which section you are referencing. Could you give me a page number, please?
robt.k.fall
Member
I'm not sure where you found this in the Statement. However, as a matter of personal observation, what you read a "best clothes" to the EC-Bs does not mean the same thing as it does to us Americans. To them (at least in the Soviet era), it means clean and well mended. I'll let @Strannik give a better answer.
Strannik
Member
Thank you for asking.
20 years ago (2001-2002), when I came only to the ECB Church, we sometimes also drank tea after the service, the sisters took out what they brought from home and arranged a feast, but eventually left this event due to lack of time and money. Everything has become more expensive simply, and in principle, as I have noticed, when the community passes a certain quantitative limit, the community goes to the level of a certain "officialdom". The worshipers also left for their homes.
And so to us sometimes joke about the Harvest festival calling it the feast of Grub.
It's just a Russian wordplay on consonance. )))
Strannik
Member
Yeshua1, don't be stereotyped.
1) Russians are not such lovers of vodka and other alcoholic potions.
2)I Am A Russian Evangelical Christian Baptist. We simply do not allow you to drink alcohol for fun. It can only be used as a cure for a specific disease.
I thought that in America, after all, the people are far from stereotypes, but it's like this. You just don't know who the Russian Baptists are.
Strannik
Member
Robicop3, you just don't seem to understand anything about the ECB Creed.
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1) Here I have been told a lot and often that I belittle and do not trust the Lord God, but in fact I see that everything is just the opposite.
How long has the birth of children become a sin if the Lord Himself commanded it:
"Be fruitful and multiply!"
and this command is valid even now.
About the attention to children. For example, I pay enough attention to all my 4 children, but everyone has their own measures and opportunities, and I know many examples when one child in the family grew up a criminal, and eventually died in prison.
About finance. Eh, always and everyone is missing. For example, I have received an offer for a small donation, not because I am too lazy to work, but because I cannot earn money. Can you tell the difference? And so it is all over the world by the way.
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About the clothes.
1 and the most important thing. Clothing must be chaste and useful. On the question of its price, this is not the topic at all. Naturally, everyone dresses in accordance with the possibilities of their purse and health.
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About Covering the head. It is also not just a whim, but the Will of God that Christian sisters cover their heads at prayer.
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4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered is ashamed of his head.
5 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered is ashamed of her head, for it is the same as if she were shaved.
6 For if a woman does not want to be covered, then let her have her hair cut; but if a woman is ashamed to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.
7 Therefore the man must not cover his head, for he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;
9 and the husband is not made for the wife, but the wife for the husband.
10 Therefore the woman must have on her head a sign of authority over her, for the angels.
11 But neither a man without a wife, nor a woman without a husband, is in the Lord.
12 For as woman came from man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Consider for yourselves whether it is proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered.
14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man grows his hair, it is a disgrace to him,
15 but if a woman grows her hair, is it an honor for her, since the hair is given to her instead of a veil?
16 But if anyone would argue, we have no such custom, nor the churches of God.
(1 Corinthians 11: 4-16)
Strannik
Member
Squire, one clarification. In the USSR, there was no birth control. You seem to have confused the USSR with the DPRK (China). This was the "One Family, One Child" program in China.
And in general, it is time for Europeans to reflect on the fact that having violated the commandment about children, Europe began to die out and be replaced by other peoples and religions.
The same problem seems to be in the US and Canada.
No, it is not USA vs. Middle East, but how we should properly interpret and observe Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians chapter 11.
We are simply not gonna agree on many things. I am 100% American, raised & live in a certain culture.
I see nothing wrong with trying to look one's best in public.
I see having too many kids to give proper attention to each one as wrong. God will let a couple know when enough is enough by one means or another. Here, it's largely the poor who have large families.(Exceptions, of course.) After 2 kids, my wife had her running gears removed. We were fruitful & multiplied; 2 of us, 2 kids).
Here, women don't wear hats that often. No one will convince me that's sinful. I shave my head. No one can convince me that's sinful. In everyday living, I'm governed by the following, among other Scriptures-Colossians 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Again, Russia & the USA have entirely-different cultures, & neither of them is like the ancient Middle East. The major cause of war is cultural and/or religious differences.
Let us agree to disagree.
I see nothing wrong with trying to look one's best in public.
I see having too many kids to give proper attention to each one as wrong. God will let a couple know when enough is enough by one means or another. Here, it's largely the poor who have large families.(Exceptions, of course.) After 2 kids, my wife had her running gears removed. We were fruitful & multiplied; 2 of us, 2 kids).
Here, women don't wear hats that often. No one will convince me that's sinful. I shave my head. No one can convince me that's sinful. In everyday living, I'm governed by the following, among other Scriptures-Colossians 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Again, Russia & the USA have entirely-different cultures, & neither of them is like the ancient Middle East. The major cause of war is cultural and/or religious differences.
Let us agree to disagree.
After reading the sytatement twice, I dropped it, but it was on the page about community churches & general Christian conduct.
And no one-N
NE-is gonna convince me that ceasing childbearing when a couple has all the kids they can financially and mentally support is a sin. JESUS did NOT tell any couple to go forth & breed like rabbits.Again, it's "each according to the dictates of one's own conscience".
By remembering whom Paul was addressing at the time. Almost all women of that time/place wore something on their heads, regardless of nationality or religion. And so did many men.
Roby, I'll not debate with you about this here -- and there is certainly room and need for biblical debate. But you seemed to pass the issue off as merely a difference in modern cultures. Not so.
Strannik
Member
I'm sorry, but I can see that that's the problem with you, that you have turned the issues of spiritual life into just some cultural differences.
I don't want to impose on you, but tell me, aren't the Amish Mennonites already less American than you? You do not have the Russian-Americans (who live in the United States is not the first generation) are less American than you?
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You say that someone for health reasons can not give birth. But no one forces us to give birth through force. My own wife gave birth to 4 (four) by caesarean section and does not give birth anymore, so no one blames her for this. You don't think that we are completely stupid here and don't know that it is necessary to serve God with reasonable reasoning?
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I'll start with you. You can shave your head bald, as the Bible does not forbid it, but to cover your head, this is the command of God. You are simply disobedient to God.
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About the "handwriting". You need to be careful, otherwise you just throw out the Holy Scripture and say that you wrote it with your own hands.
It actually says something about the Mosaic Law of the Old Testament, but I'm telling you what the Lord commands already in the New Testament.
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Don't hide behind cultural differences. Be obedient to the Lord God and His Sacred Word.
I was joking, as was saying that some of the food items that we saw while over in Russia might need strong drink in order to put it down!
I hope you haven't said foul things like that in front of those kids.
Well, OK, but just think-How many women in your church wear hats in the service? How manu have fairly-short hair, especially older women whose hair is often curled & doesn't reach their shoulders? Are they all sinning?
So now, if I wear a ballcap, I'm sinning?
We had 2 kids & quit, as (A) We were 39 & 38 years old, respectively, after the 2nd one, (B) Wife's health suffered; Dr. recommended she have her "tubes tied", which she did, & (C) We couldn't really afford any more, financially. So, we sinned by quitting childbearing?
OF COURSE I don't wear anything on my head in church, and, in warm weather, few women do. Are those who don't all sinning, as well as those with short haircuts?
"The times, they are a'changin' !" Paul wrote about meat offered to idols, which isn't an issue in non-idolatrous countries such as Russia & the USA. But in Paul's time/place, it was.
Follow your conscience & I'll follow mine!
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