I agree, it seems we have overlooked the strength it takes to Love once enemies. It is not an easy or coward thing to do. It was also not an optional or conditional command from our Lord and Savior. He said "by this will men know that you are my disciples".
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The DIFFERENCE Between USA and Radical Muslims in Torture
- Thread starter righteousdude2
- Start date
I agree, it seems we have overlooked the strength it takes to Love once enemies. It is not an easy or coward thing to do. It was also not an optional or conditional command from our Lord and Savior. He said "by this will men know that you are my disciples".
Great stuff, LeBuick!:applause:
windcatcher
New Member
So, if someone chooses to actually follow what Jesus said, opposed to paying lip-service to what Jesus said, that person is a coward and is only concerned about his own self-righteousness?
But the person who chooses to follow the ways of the world, corrupted and polluted by the world's violence...even to the point of torturing another human being, that person is pleasing to our Lord?Jesus and His apostles disagree with you. Does that matter?It means are morals are corrupted by the world, no matter what words are used to soothe the conscience and we impliment an "ends justifies the means" mentality.So, your view can be summed up in 4 steps:
Step 1. Disregard what Jesus and the apostles say in God's Word.
Step 2. Call anyone that wants to follow what Jesus said in God's Word a self-righteous coward.
Step 3. Deny our morals have been corrupted as we follow the ways of the world.
Step 4. Claim you can't understand how anyone could see it differently.
I'll stick with scripture.
peace to youraying:
I will say this: When a soldier enlist to fight for his country, or when a man trains and joins the police force to help keep the peace and enforce the laws within his own community, they are under both standards and orders..... and their duties may require violence and taking of life. This does not make them immoral people nor does it reduce or negate their Christianity. However for each in the course of their duties are acting under the authority of officers who make policies and orders.
While they are expected to know right from wrong, what their limits are and what you as a civilian limits might be are different standards. When doing their work, they may be Christian but they do it as Americans who follow orders and the discipline of their command. If they fight, they fight under the banner of our country's flag and not the cross. If they refuse to follow orders then they are not judged on the basis of their faith but on the basis of whether they were in the narrow range of exception where such is allowed. If they are a Christian and join the military, then they are expected to submit to orders as any other without reservation. If they have reservations then they should not join.
Some of you seem to think that a person who carries out orders of torture should know better and be responsible to stop or refuse. A lot of things might be nice in an ideal world, but if the very people that carry certain acts out on others, have been subjected to these very acts themselves during their training then they are less apt to perceive it as being unusual. It is just like the person who was raised in a family where there was always corporal punishment dealt out by the parents, may not think of it in quite the same way as the person who never experienced it.
I'm done with this topic as I'm content that there are too many stubborn and hypocritical hard heads and hearts and self righteous judges on this board. They talk all too well about loving the enemy and turning the other cheek but have no love or compassion for those from among us who might have been caught up in the ordeal of these nasty decisions and following orders. I know the hypocracy of your words of charity. I had certainly not intended to appear as condoning torture... But if that's the flavor I leave some of your stiff necks with for the day then so be it. As for myself, I've yet to see "torture" defined well enough to suffice for objective judgement in all circumstances without qualifying. The ones who already post and have judgement on such have not shown the intelligence in their communications enough to define it for me either....
BTW, Canadyjd, FWIW, I'm a woman.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
We have been discussing torture in general and whether we should condone it, as Christians. We certainly haven't singled out a specific person or incident for discussion that I know of.
Wow!! You must be having a really bad day!
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything but........ OK...?
BTW, what does FWIW mean?
peace to you
raying:
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And In A Perfect World....
.....your arguments would be more than acceptable, however, I know we can all agree that we do not live in a perfect world. In fact, the world we live in has given itself over to sin, and we know what sin can do to morals, values, etc.
This is why, we believers can not understand the ways of this world, and how it fights its' wars. The methods used to fight ones enemies are essential to being victorious, and all of our arguments for the moral high ground will never hold water, like a bucket with holes in it!
Each of us need to realize that the battle is supernatural and against supernatural enemies, thus we can not apply Christian principles, because those principles have no place in defining the rules of engagement in any war.
God will judge man and his nations according to His laws, and I'm sure He will give many of these nations a pass, because they acted in a manner that was mandated in order to maintain their freedom. God's people conducted wars, and by following His instructions, atrocities were committed, especially when God purged all living beings from the nations He led His armies against.
And lets talk about torture...and God: Will Hell, and an eternity in Hell not be a horrible kind of torture? It sounds [from what is written] that Hell will be a living place of pain and suffering which sounds like a living form of torture in itself. To discover, at judgement, that we really could have been saved; that God did create all we could see or touch; and that we were all sinners and needed to be saved will be an emotional/mental torture in itself. A kind of torture that will go on forever. Hell has beeen developed to be a form of eternal punishment, as we are banned from Heaven. I believe God set up a form of eternal torture chamber, and many, many people will enter Hell with the knowledge that they allowed sin to seperate them from God and eternity in Heaven.
None of us have the answers to what we've been discussing, but, we've all shared from our hearts. This doesn't make one more moral than the other. This simply allows us to lay our values on the table, and allow our brothers and sisters to see our side of the issue. We will know so much more in Heaven...until that day, let's just agree to disagree in a warm, and friendly manner. After all, we are not the enemy......
Shalom,
Pastor Paul:type:
.....your arguments would be more than acceptable, however, I know we can all agree that we do not live in a perfect world. In fact, the world we live in has given itself over to sin, and we know what sin can do to morals, values, etc.
This is why, we believers can not understand the ways of this world, and how it fights its' wars. The methods used to fight ones enemies are essential to being victorious, and all of our arguments for the moral high ground will never hold water, like a bucket with holes in it!
Each of us need to realize that the battle is supernatural and against supernatural enemies, thus we can not apply Christian principles, because those principles have no place in defining the rules of engagement in any war.
God will judge man and his nations according to His laws, and I'm sure He will give many of these nations a pass, because they acted in a manner that was mandated in order to maintain their freedom. God's people conducted wars, and by following His instructions, atrocities were committed, especially when God purged all living beings from the nations He led His armies against.
And lets talk about torture...and God: Will Hell, and an eternity in Hell not be a horrible kind of torture? It sounds [from what is written] that Hell will be a living place of pain and suffering which sounds like a living form of torture in itself. To discover, at judgement, that we really could have been saved; that God did create all we could see or touch; and that we were all sinners and needed to be saved will be an emotional/mental torture in itself. A kind of torture that will go on forever. Hell has beeen developed to be a form of eternal punishment, as we are banned from Heaven. I believe God set up a form of eternal torture chamber, and many, many people will enter Hell with the knowledge that they allowed sin to seperate them from God and eternity in Heaven.
None of us have the answers to what we've been discussing, but, we've all shared from our hearts. This doesn't make one more moral than the other. This simply allows us to lay our values on the table, and allow our brothers and sisters to see our side of the issue. We will know so much more in Heaven...until that day, let's just agree to disagree in a warm, and friendly manner. After all, we are not the enemy......
Shalom,
Pastor Paul:type:
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Here is the deference, they are enforcing laws of the community and not making up laws as they go along or lowering their themselves to the practices or behavior of the criminals in order to catch a criminal. If they lower themselves, they are now criminals and in violation of the same laws as the criminals.
A cop killing someone in the line of duty is far different than a cop on a murdering spree. Same with war, soldiers kill in combat but it is unlawful for a soldier to kill a captured combatant who is no longer capable of doing them harm. We have acceptable means of gaining information that work, torture is not one of them.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Pastor Paul, our arguments for moral high ground are based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, found in the Word of the Living God. It holds water, every time.
This is exactly the time to apply Christian principles, so that we do not lose ourselves in the world.
Do you have any scripture to base that on, or is it your opinion that God gives governments a "pass" on sin.
Haven't you read in scriptures where God allowed an army to come in and wipe out a people...and then punished that very army for doing so?
God will not allow to sin to go unpunished.
Certainly you are not comparing the righteous punishment of God to the use of torture at the hands of men, are you? You are on very shaky ground, here.
Scripture has the answer, if we will just believe what God has revealed to us.
It has always amazed me that those who shout the loudest about being people of the Word are the very ones who disregard scripture when it doesn't say what they want it to say.
Either you follow scripture or you don't.
On that, we can agree.
peace to you
raying:The only way that is true would be if his disciples-- to whom he was speaking-- were each others' enemies (John 13:35).
Actually it was in the Sermon on the Mount and was not directed at just the disciples.
Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
So you're saying it's only a requirement for disciples to Love? I don't understand your point. How about 1 JN 4:8?
I agree with this.
However, some people have so broadly defined "torture" as to make interrogation/intelligence impossible. Some on this board would propose that changing up someone's daily rhythm is torture. Nothing less than the Four Seasons Manhattan would do for them, I guess...
Oh, the importance of defining one's terms...
How interesting that some who say we are not a Christian nation decide they now want to text proof Scripture about our national defense.
Let's keep on topic, shall we? The topic is the difference between USA and radical muslims in torture.
Here are some examples of muslims torturing:
A tire is placed over your child's body and your child is doused with gasoline and lit on fire. You are helpless to defend your child (you are tied up and held at gun point) while your son or daughter is burned alive screaming.
You are held at gun point and tied down made to watch while your wife is gang raped and her breasts cut off.
Get a grip, people.
Let's keep on topic, shall we? The topic is the difference between USA and radical muslims in torture.
Here are some examples of muslims torturing:
A tire is placed over your child's body and your child is doused with gasoline and lit on fire. You are helpless to defend your child (you are tied up and held at gun point) while your son or daughter is burned alive screaming.
You are held at gun point and tied down made to watch while your wife is gang raped and her breasts cut off.
Get a grip, people.
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I am utterly shocked at this statement, JC. It is completely inconsistent with many of your other statements on this board regarding war, peace, violence, self-defense, etc. You've made statements that you are not sure if Jesus would allow to kill a criminal who is assaulting you or others. You've made statements about the utter evil of Bush killing innocent Iraqis. You've made statements that our soldiers are murderers for the same. But yet, you support Truman's decision to annihilate over 100,000 innocent non-combatants? What? I am appalled at your hypocrisy. But I suspect that the only reason you think Truman was right, was that he was a Democrat. You reveal yourself to be the most hypocritical, partisan hack this board has ever seen. As much as he annoys me with his muddled thinking, I would love to take 10,000 more posts from Ken H., than to ever see another one of your hypocritical, Democrat lap-dog posts again.
King David sawed people up, mangled them with farm implements, cut them up with an axe, and burned them alive.
Nehemiah ripped people's hair out.
All throughout the bible, even in Jesus's parables, it favorably talks about whipping people horribly.
Exodus has specific instructions for directions on how to beat your slaves... it's ok as long as they survive for a day or two after the beating.
Proverbs has several verses on how you should beat fools and even your kids.
Deuteronomy says to take a wicked man, cause him to lie down, and be beaten.
Nehemiah ripped people's hair out.
All throughout the bible, even in Jesus's parables, it favorably talks about whipping people horribly.
Exodus has specific instructions for directions on how to beat your slaves... it's ok as long as they survive for a day or two after the beating.
Proverbs has several verses on how you should beat fools and even your kids.
Deuteronomy says to take a wicked man, cause him to lie down, and be beaten.
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Torture Is Righteous in the EYE's of its Beholder(s)
I know that Hell is God's righteous form of judgment, but, as righteous as it is, it is still torture for anyone who must pass through it for an eternity, with NO hope of ever being set free.
I have to believe that whether it be America, Russia, China, or radical Muslims, torture may be righteous in their eyes, too!!!
When it came to the Romans, Jesus experienced a cruel and painful form of torture, and it wasn't even to secure information, or tactics from Jesus. It was simply to inflict PAIN....the cat-o-nine-tails that Jesus was whipped with, was invented to exact as much pain as possible. Each little ball attached to the tails of the whip had sharp claws that dug their way into the flesh of the person being whipped. And when the whip was pulled back and away from the prisoner, those tails carried large pieces of flesh, ripped from the skin of the prisoners back. Each whip caused pain, and guaranteed prolonged suffering, way after the punishment ended.:tear:
I can only submit, that in the eyes of the leadership of these nations, their forms of inflicting pain to secure information detrimental to the nation's freedom and overall survival, is RIGHTEOUS too.
As Obama so eloquently said, we are not a Christian nation. but a nation of citizens with Ideals. And if this is true, than it is these ideals that set in stone the rules of military engagement and the parameters of the torture used to secure vital information from the captured enemy.
Righteousness is truly in the eyes of the beholder. and in the case of America, I still believe that what the government does behind "Closed Doors" to protect the national security of this country need to remain behind the curtain of secrecy. Once we allow millions of people to cast their personal opinions and concerns about this weapon, this tactical movement, or this form of torture, we lose control of the methods used to secure vital information from enemy combatants.
Keep the doors closed, and the public in the dark, and there will be know debate over the moral values of this, or that?
Again, the less we [as a society] know, the better we fare in regard to the war.
Shalom,
Pastor Paul:type:
Certainly you are not comparing the righteous punishment of God to the use of torture at the hands of men, are you? You are on very shaky ground, here.Scripture has the answer, if we will just believe what God has revealed to us.
I know that Hell is God's righteous form of judgment, but, as righteous as it is, it is still torture for anyone who must pass through it for an eternity, with NO hope of ever being set free.
I have to believe that whether it be America, Russia, China, or radical Muslims, torture may be righteous in their eyes, too!!!
When it came to the Romans, Jesus experienced a cruel and painful form of torture, and it wasn't even to secure information, or tactics from Jesus. It was simply to inflict PAIN....the cat-o-nine-tails that Jesus was whipped with, was invented to exact as much pain as possible. Each little ball attached to the tails of the whip had sharp claws that dug their way into the flesh of the person being whipped. And when the whip was pulled back and away from the prisoner, those tails carried large pieces of flesh, ripped from the skin of the prisoners back. Each whip caused pain, and guaranteed prolonged suffering, way after the punishment ended.:tear:
I can only submit, that in the eyes of the leadership of these nations, their forms of inflicting pain to secure information detrimental to the nation's freedom and overall survival, is RIGHTEOUS too.
As Obama so eloquently said, we are not a Christian nation. but a nation of citizens with Ideals. And if this is true, than it is these ideals that set in stone the rules of military engagement and the parameters of the torture used to secure vital information from the captured enemy.
Righteousness is truly in the eyes of the beholder. and in the case of America, I still believe that what the government does behind "Closed Doors" to protect the national security of this country need to remain behind the curtain of secrecy. Once we allow millions of people to cast their personal opinions and concerns about this weapon, this tactical movement, or this form of torture, we lose control of the methods used to secure vital information from enemy combatants.
Keep the doors closed, and the public in the dark, and there will be know debate over the moral values of this, or that?
Again, the less we [as a society] know, the better we fare in regard to the war.
Shalom,
Pastor Paul:type:
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
God's righteous is revealed in His Word. It is not a matter of opinion.
Again, civilian oversight of military operations is a foundation of our constitution.
It is never a good idea to give men a free pass and stick our heads in the sand, especially in areas of morality. We cannot just trust that the ends justifies the means.
Not only is it morally wrong to do so, but it is shirking our responsibility as well.
peace to you
raying:JustChristian
New Member
In the late 1900's we had a shortage of engineers. I know this personally. Wer brought in engineers from other countries. If enough Americans had had the guts to take on an engineering degree we wouldn't have been in this situation.