The "dirty" Facts of Christian Life?

[1689Dave]

Once, in the 1950s I and some other boys tried to figure out how we came to be. We were beyond the cabbage leaf stage and knew our parents had something to do with it. One gave his ideas of what might have caused us. Another hit close to what happens. While another boy, Jimmy shrieked yuck! “No way!”… “My dad would not do something like that to my mom”. And we went our separate ways, as clueless as ever.

And this reminds me of many Christians I run into when I try to share the doctrines of salvation. They cannot imagine God saving people the way he does. Against their will, supernaturally through the New Birth, making them willing.

I believe the resistance comes from our legalistic conditioning by the world. Law depends on free will. And free will makes us responsible for our actions. This is necessary for civilization.

So unless taught by our Reformed confessions, we always begin assessing the bible, and our experience in Christ by free will. The bible says “whoever believes has eternal life”. So in our legalistic mind-set we read “whoever chooses to believe has eternal life”. Because that is how the world works.

So we legalize scripture reading free will into it. But an even greater hindrance to understanding salvation comes from the bible itself. The Old Testament Law depended on free will but could never save. And God physically rewarded or punished Israel as a result. But the big mistake comes from assuming the New Covenant works on the same principles.

And this is where Paul begins teaching us that salvation is through grace (no law involved) and not by works (law keeping). We know he forbids us from trying to earn salvation through keeping the Ten Commandments. Instead by measuring our sin by them. And then trusting in Jesus who paid for our sins on the cross.

But we turn this message into a new law we must keep when we import free will into it. Instead of trusting in Jesus alone, we trust in our free will response to a false gospel we turned into law. Instead of God supernaturally saving us, we save ourselves through obedience to a false gospel based on works.

But as we study, we begin to learn we were free only to sin. And unless saved by grace in the New Birth, we only acted like Christians in an attempt to save ourselves. Instead we act like Christians because of the new birth God gave us. Just as a cat acts like a cat by nature, we act saved because of our saved nature.

I don’t know if Jimmy ever got it right. But his obituary omitted having a family of his own....

 

[MartyF]

So unless taught by our Reformed confessions

Thank you for admitting the origins.

 

[1689Dave]

Thank you for admitting the origins.

I was a Pentecostal Dispensationalist Arminian who later read the "facts of Life" in the Westminster Confession.

 

[utilyan]

Once, in the 1950s I and some other boys tried to figure out how we came to be. We were beyond the cabbage leaf stage and knew our parents had something to do with it. One gave his ideas of what might have caused us. Another hit close to what happens. While another boy, Jimmy shrieked yuck! “No way!”… “My dad would not do something like that to my mom”. And we went our separate ways, as clueless as ever.

And this reminds me of many Christians I run into when I try to share the doctrines of salvation. They cannot imagine God saving people the way he does. Against their will, supernaturally through the New Birth, making them willing.

I believe the resistance comes from our legalistic conditioning by the world. Law depends on free will. And free will makes us responsible for our actions. This is necessary for civilization.

So unless taught by our Reformed confessions, we always begin assessing the bible, and our experience in Christ by free will. The bible says “whoever believes has eternal life”. So in our legalistic mind-set we read “whoever chooses to believe has eternal life”. Because that is how the world works.

So we legalize scripture reading free will into it. But an even greater hindrance to understanding salvation comes from the bible itself. The Old Testament Law depended on free will but could never save. And God physically rewarded or punished Israel as a result. But the big mistake comes from assuming the New Covenant works on the same principles.

And this is where Paul begins teaching us that salvation is through grace (no law involved) and not by works (law keeping). We know he forbids us from trying to earn salvation through keeping the Ten Commandments. Instead by measuring our sin by them. And then trusting in Jesus who paid for our sins on the cross.

But we turn this message into a new law we must keep when we import free will into it. Instead of trusting in Jesus alone, we trust in our free will response to a false gospel we turned into law. Instead of God supernaturally saving us, we save ourselves through obedience to a false gospel based on works.

But as we study, we begin to learn we were free only to sin. And unless saved by grace in the New Birth, we only acted like Christians in an attempt to save ourselves. Instead we act like Christians because of the new birth God gave us. Just as a cat acts like a cat by nature, we act saved because of our saved nature.

I don’t know if Jimmy ever got it right. But his obituary omitted having a family of his own....

"I believe the resistance comes from our legalistic conditioning by the world"

So if there was no legalistic condition everything would be peachy?

Your theology teaches the resistance comes from GOD limiting them in the first place.

Its like you don't believe what you claim to believe. You need to sit down and actually think this stuff through.

And the truth is you being first hand experienced being elect and reborn would insist exactly why things happen not theorizing and guessing.

You got a problem of PEER pressure and CONFORMITY. You love telling people in your circle what they WANT TO HEAR. Rather than think for yourself for once in your life.

 

[1689Dave]

"I believe the resistance comes from our legalistic conditioning by the world"

So if there was no legalistic condition everything would be peachy?

Your theology teaches the resistance comes from GOD limiting them in the first place.

Its like you don't believe what you claim to believe. You need to sit down and actually think this stuff through.

And the truth is you being first hand experienced being elect and reborn would insist exactly why things happen not theorizing and guessing.

You got a problem of PEER pressure and CONFORMITY. You love telling people in your circle what they WANT TO HEAR. Rather than think for yourself for once in your life.

What makes your opinions better than anyone elses?

 

[utilyan]

What makes your opinions better than anyone elses?

Sincerity does.

See if you were sincerely reborn and changed, your first hand experience is all the proof you need. The answer to "free will" would be obvious.

You would have had first hand experience of change "Against their will, supernaturally through the New Birth, making them willing."

Instead you are now trying to make a case that free will doesn't work rather than saying it doesn't exist.

In short folks not coming clean on the TRUTH of ever having been born again. The story is not adding up.

To say well i was a non-cal when I came to Jesus but now I'm a Calvinist let me rethink what happened when I was born again.

That would be nonsense.

 

[MB]

Once, in the 1950s I and some other boys tried to figure out how we came to be. We were beyond the cabbage leaf stage and knew our parents had something to do with it. One gave his ideas of what might have caused us. Another hit close to what happens. While another boy, Jimmy shrieked yuck! “No way!”… “My dad would not do something like that to my mom”. And we went our separate ways, as clueless as ever.

And this reminds me of many Christians I run into when I try to share the doctrines of salvation. They cannot imagine God saving people the way he does. Against their will, supernaturally through the New Birth, making them willing.

I believe the resistance comes from our legalistic conditioning by the world. Law depends on free will. And free will makes us responsible for our actions. This is necessary for civilization.

So unless taught by our Reformed confessions, we always begin assessing the bible, and our experience in Christ by free will. The bible says “whoever believes has eternal life”. So in our legalistic mind-set we read “whoever chooses to believe has eternal life”. Because that is how the world works.

So we legalize scripture reading free will into it. But an even greater hindrance to understanding salvation comes from the bible itself. The Old Testament Law depended on free will but could never save. And God physically rewarded or punished Israel as a result. But the big mistake comes from assuming the New Covenant works on the same principles.

And this is where Paul begins teaching us that salvation is through grace (no law involved) and not by works (law keeping). We know he forbids us from trying to earn salvation through keeping the Ten Commandments. Instead by measuring our sin by them. And then trusting in Jesus who paid for our sins on the cross.

But we turn this message into a new law we must keep when we import free will into it. Instead of trusting in Jesus alone, we trust in our free will response to a false gospel we turned into law. Instead of God supernaturally saving us, we save ourselves through obedience to a false gospel based on works.

But as we study, we begin to learn we were free only to sin. And unless saved by grace in the New Birth, we only acted like Christians in an attempt to save ourselves. Instead we act like Christians because of the new birth God gave us. Just as a cat acts like a cat by nature, we act saved because of our saved nature.

I don’t know if Jimmy ever got it right. But his obituary omitted having a family of his own....

This is an example of starting out with truth and then turning your back on truth in favor of the sayings of men. The west minister confession is not truth, scripture is, you have been deceived. It's called leaving your first love.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

This is an example of starting out with truth and then turning your back on truth in favor of the sayings of men. The west minister confession is not truth, scripture is, you have been deceived. It's called leaving your first love.
MB

No creed but Christ? Have you ever set out to prove the Westminster wrong using scripture alone. Take a swing at it and show us your results.

 

[Dave G]

Thank you for admitting the origins.

I think a little history reading might be in order, sir.

As I see it, "Calvinistic Baptists" had to get the material for the "confessions" ( not that I directly subscribe to them, nor do I directly subscribe to "TULIP"... even though I agree with much that is in them and it ) from somewhere...and it wasn't Augustine or John Calvin.
For example, William Tyndale wrote of "unconditional election" some 8 years before John Calvin's 'Institutes' was published in March of 1536.

Other than God's word, I don't see anywhere that he ever mentioned any other source, in his writings, for his convictions.

He was strangled by the state authorities in October of 1536 after having been held prisoner for over a year in Belgium, and then his body was burned at the stake...
Convicted of heresy and for translating the Bible into English.


Then there's the matter of the "Catholic Connection"...knowledgeable Roman Catholics will probably tell you that "Calvinism" is not taught by their church ( and hasn't even remotely been since at least 529 when the Council of Orange ended ), and it is anathema per the Council of Trent: Sixth Session, "On Justification", which ended in 1563.
As far as I am aware, its canons have never been rescinded.

In fact, if you hold to anything that was condemned in the Canons of Trent, you are considered anathema ( accursed ) by the RCC.
Here's a source for your reading:

~The Council of Trent - Session 6~

It's very much like reading a legal document.
But if you know how to read those, you shouldn't have much trouble reading it.


With that said, I'm sorry you don't see it, sir.
It's all in His word.

Everything that explains salvation by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ's finished work on the cross... alone, is all in there.
It took a while, but the Lord showed me quite a bit over roughly 16 years, simply by obeying His command here:

" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

He really is gracious to sinners, as I have nothing to stand on except His mercy ( Titus 3:5-6 ).
Someday I will see His blessed Son, my Saviour, and I will rejoice at my gift...

To know the only true God, and His Son, Jesus Christ ( John 17:3 ).

 

[Scott Downey]

When you are elect, you are under the law of the Spirit of Life of God, so your sins, even your many sins are all forgiven you.

Sin is lawlessness.
The man of sin, (devil incarnate) is the lawless one. Other lawless ones, the sons of disobedience, are the weeds planted by the devil in God's field the world read the parable of the wheat and the tares.
Lawlessness means they don't follow after God and Christ, they follow after and align their interest to other lawless ones, like Satan as their gang leader.

They of course are fulfilling God's plan but since he is a man of sin, he is condemned to not abide in life, but to abide in death, he is not elected to life having his name written in the book of life of the lamb at the world's foundation. Foundations are built before what comes upon them later, the foundation precedes what is constructed on the foundation. Christ being the foundation of our salvation was slain from the foundation of the world, and we who are elect to be saved are built upon that foundation into a building according to the will of God at the times of his choosing for us, when he reveals 'Christ in us'.

You are God's building.
1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.

2 Corinthians 5:1
[ Assurance of the Resurrection ] For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Ephesians 2:19-22
Christ Our Cornerstone
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,

22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[Shoostie]

I was a Pentecostal Dispensationalist Arminian who later read the "facts of Life" in the Westminster Confession.

I wonder why some people can and some people can't grow out of such a background? God's sovereign choice?