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The Disappearance of the Dean Burgon Society

Anthony Pritchard

Well-Known Member
Bill Fortenberry wrote:
April Mahon referred
David Crystal maintained
Words of man.

You said:

"...omitted words, added words, or changed words do not preserve the exact same original words that proceeded from the mouth of God by inspiration to the prophets and apostles. Any error introduced by a copier, printer, or whomever in copies and in Bible translations can and should be corrected. It could also be soundly concluded that any words, perverted, diminished, or mistranslated by men are not the absolutely pure words of God..."

When you say that men failed to preserve God’s Word, you are necessarily saying that the God who gave the inspired Word in spite of fallible men failed to protect it from fallible men. You cannot affirm human failure in preservation without implying divine failure in preservation. The two claims stand or fall together.

This is the logical entailment of your own premise.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You said:

"...omitted words, added words, or changed words do not preserve the exact same original words that proceeded from the mouth of God by inspiration to the prophets and apostles. Any error introduced by a copier, printer, or whomever in copies and in Bible translations can and should be corrected. It could also be soundly concluded that any words, perverted, diminished, or mistranslated by men are not the absolutely pure words of God..."

When you say that men failed to preserve God’s Word, you are necessarily saying that the God who gave the inspired Word in spite of fallible men failed to protect it from fallible men. You cannot affirm human failure in preservation without implying divine failure in preservation. The two claims stand or fall together.

This is the logical entailment of your own premise.
Your invented entailment is not the logical conclusion to what I accurately stated in agreement with Scriptural truths. You have not refuted my actual statements. You continue your bogus misrepresentations. I nowhere said that God failed in preservation as you try to suggest. On the other hand, you have failed to prove your extra-biblical arguments to be sounder than my scripturally-based statements.

Your own extra-biblical argument against modern English Bibles could be understood to suggest human failure in the preservation of the words of God translated into modern English in them. Are you claiming that you do not imply divine failure in preservation in the word of God translated into present-day Modern English since you condemn those English Bibles? Do you not suggest that God failed to protect His words from fallible men who translated present modern English Bible?
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Words of man.
Bill Fortenberry, who is a KJV defender with views similar to yours, would claim to be an authority on English. Bill Fortenberry claims to have read 10,000 books in English. Are you claiming to be a self-appointed authority on the English language with more knowledge than these three people?

Bill Fortenberry wrote: “The next period of the English language extending from 1450 to 1690 is known as Early Modern English” (False Friends and True Enemies, p. 239; Stewardship Requires Fidelity: A Biblical Case for the King James Version, p. 41).

April Mahon, who is Forbes Professor of English language, referred to “Early modern English (a convenient if slightly amorphous term which covers at least 1500-1700)” (Mugglestone, Oxford History of English, p. 180).

David Crystal, who has been referred to as "the world's greatest authority on the English language," maintained that Early Modern English is “usually taken to begin around the time of the arrival of printing in Britain (1476) and to end around the lifetime of Dr. Johnson (died 1784)” (Making Sense, p. 180).

The English in the pre-1611 English Bibles and the 1611 KJV is Early Modern English, not Modern English.

David Crystal noted: “The King James Bible looks backward in its grammar, and preserves many of the forms and constructions which were falling out of use elsewhere” (Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language, p. 65). David Crystal maintained that the KJV translators “often opted for older forms of the language, when modern alternatives were available” (Ibid.). David Crystal wrote: “The -eth [ending] was already dying out in Shakespeare’s day, and a century later wouldn’t be seen at all, other than in writers being deliberately archaic – or, as with the taxman cometh, being jocular” (Making Sense, p. 181). David Crystal wrote: “The third person singular of the present tense of verbs is always –(e)th. In other texts of the period, it is being replaced by -s” (Cambridge Encyclopedia, p 65). Concerning the KJV, David Crystal pointed out: “In particular, the modern use of do with negatives and in questions is missing: we find they knew him not instead of they did not know him. By contrast, both old and new constructions are used in Shakespeare, and the do construction became standard by about 1700” (Ibid.).

Cannot the word of God be preserved in present-day Modern English in the same sense that the word of God can be preserved in Early Modern English?
Do you in effect deny that God preserves His Word in present-day Modern English in the NKJV just as well as God preserves His word in 1500's English [Early Modern English or Elizabethton English] in the KJV?
 

Anthony Pritchard

Well-Known Member
Bill Fortenberry, who is a KJV defender with views similar to yours, would claim to be an authority on English. Bill Fortenberry claims to have read 10,000 books in English. Are you claiming to be a self-appointed authority on the English language with more knowledge than these three people?

Bill Fortenberry wrote: “The next period of the English language extending from 1450 to 1690 is known as Early Modern English” (False Friends and True Enemies, p. 239; Stewardship Requires Fidelity: A Biblical Case for the King James Version, p. 41).

April Mahon, who is Forbes Professor of English language, referred to “Early modern English (a convenient if slightly amorphous term which covers at least 1500-1700)” (Mugglestone, Oxford History of English, p. 180).

David Crystal, who has been referred to as "the world's greatest authority on the English language," maintained that Early Modern English is “usually taken to begin around the time of the arrival of printing in Britain (1476) and to end around the lifetime of Dr. Johnson (died 1784)” (Making Sense, p. 180).

The English in the pre-1611 English Bibles and the 1611 KJV is Early Modern English, not Modern English.

David Crystal noted: “The King James Bible looks backward in its grammar, and preserves many of the forms and constructions which were falling out of use elsewhere” (Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language, p. 65). David Crystal maintained that the KJV translators “often opted for older forms of the language, when modern alternatives were available” (Ibid.). David Crystal wrote: “The -eth [ending] was already dying out in Shakespeare’s day, and a century later wouldn’t be seen at all, other than in writers being deliberately archaic – or, as with the taxman cometh, being jocular” (Making Sense, p. 181). David Crystal wrote: “The third person singular of the present tense of verbs is always –(e)th. In other texts of the period, it is being replaced by -s” (Cambridge Encyclopedia, p 65). Concerning the KJV, David Crystal pointed out: “In particular, the modern use of do with negatives and in questions is missing: we find they knew him not instead of they did not know him. By contrast, both old and new constructions are used in Shakespeare, and the do construction became standard by about 1700” (Ibid.).

Cannot the word of God be preserved in present-day Modern English in the same sense that the word of God can be preserved in Early Modern English?
Do you in effect deny that God preserves His Word in present-day Modern English in the NKJV just as well as God preserves His word in 1500's English [Early Modern English or Elizabethton English] in the KJV?


Bill Fortenberry
April Mahon
David Crystal

Your entire philosophy is built on the words of man.

None of the people you quoted have anything to do with your reconstruction method. Fortenberry, Mahon, and Crystal are discussing the history of English, not the doctrine of preservation. I have never disputed that the KJV is written in Early Modern English. That is simply a linguistic category, and every scholar you cited agrees with it.

But linguistic history does not prove reconstruction. You are using language scholars to defend a textual method they never addressed. The question is not whether English changed, of course it did. The question is whether God preserved His words through the transmission of the churches, or whether His words were largely lost and must be restored by modern editors.

Your citations do not touch that issue. They describe English. They do not justify reconstruction.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Your entire philosophy is built on the words of man.
Your opinion is wrong. My view is based on what the Scriptures state and teach, which I apply to the verifiable facts throughout history. I quote men to provide evidence concerning the facts of history and the facts concerning the making of post-NT Bible translations. Your extra-biblical two lines of Bibles argument [a KJV-only argument] is inconsistent and wrong. Your philosophy depends just as much on the words of men and on your extra-biblical assumptions and claims. The Masoretes and Jews who copied the Old Testament Hebrew text were not part of the New Testament church. They believed the false doctrine of a claimed oral law given to Moses, and they rejected the Lord Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Saviour. Textual criticism and reconstruction were involved in the making of the varying Textus Receptus editions and in the making of English Bible translations including the KJV.

While the term textual criticism may not be found in Scripture, following or obeying God’s instructions in several verses of Scripture (Deut. 4:2, Deut. 12:32, Prov. 30:6, Eccl. 3:14, Rev. 22:18-19), which would relate to the process of copying Scripture, would in effect be practicing a form of textual criticism. Examining the copy being made to see that no words are added, no words are omitted, and no words are changed would be engaging in textual criticism. Removing added words, adding back omitted words, and correcting changed words would be restoring the text to its intended original form.
Determining whether words are added, taken away, or diminished would be what is called textual criticism.
These scriptural instructions and truths provide sound guidance concerning how to know the words which the LORD has or has not spoken (Deut. 18:20-22, Jer. 23:16, Jer. 23:35, Ezek. 22:28, Isa. 8:20, 1 Thess. 5:21, 1 John 4:1).
 

Anthony Pritchard

Well-Known Member
Your opinion is wrong. My view is based on what the Scriptures state and teach, which I apply to the verifiable facts throughout history. I quote men to provide evidence concerning the facts of history and the facts concerning the making of post-NT Bible translations
You are defending reconstructionism by redefining textual criticism, attacking the Masoretes, rewriting the history of the TR, and appealing to scholars who deny preservation. Your position is built on the words of men, not the doctrine of Scripture.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You are defending reconstructionism by redefining textual criticism, attacking the Masoretes, rewriting the history of the TR, and appealing to scholars who deny preservation. Your position is built on the words of men, not the doctrine of Scripture.
It is your modern position that is built on the words of men, not the doctrine of Scripture. I permitted the Scriptures themselves to define what would constitute textual criticism. I am presenting the biblical view of it. While the term textual criticism may not be found in Scripture, following or obeying God’s instructions in several verses of Scripture (Deut. 4:2, Deut. 12:32, Prov. 30:6, Eccl. 3:14, Rev. 22:18-19), which would relate to the process of copying Scripture, would in effect be practicing a form of textual criticism. Examining the copy being made to see that no words are added, no words are omitted, and no words are changed would be engaging in textual criticism. Removing added words, adding back omitted words, and correcting changed words would be restoring the text to its intended original form. Determining whether words are added, taken away, or diminished would be what is called textual criticism.

According to your inconsistent, erroneous reasoning, the early English Bible translators and the KJV translators would have supposedly denied preservation when they engaged in textual criticism.
In his preface to his 1534 New Testament, William Tyndale wrote: "I had taken in hand to look over the New Testament again and to compare it with the Greek, and to mend whatsoever I could find amiss." Writing for all the translators in the preface to the 1611 KJV, Miles Smith noted: “If anything be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the original, the same may be corrected, and the truth set in place.” Miles Smith observed: “No cause therefore why the word translated should be denied to be the word, or forbidden to be current, notwithstanding that some imperfections and blemishes may be noted in the setting forth of it. For whatever was perfect under the sun, where apostles or apostolike men, that is, men indued with an extraordinary measure of God’s Spirit, and privileged with the privilege of infallibility, had not their hand? The Romanists therefore in refusing to hear, and daring to burn the word translated, did no less then despite the Spirit of grace, from whom originally it proceeded, and whose sense and meaning, as well as man’s weakness would enable, it did express.”
 
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