thisnumbersdisconnected
I know the title of this thread is provocative, and probably raised the ire of many of you who have clicked on it for the purpose of seeing what vile and horrid things I may say about Calvinists.
As much as non cals like to accuse the Cals of arrogance....if you observe the threads 9 times out of ten -the attack comes from the non cals. So many might expect to see that kind of thing at this point.
I want to assure you, I have no such intent.
This is good and most times you will not get harsh treatment if any rightly understand your intent to dialogue.Dialogue can be healthy.
However, I do want those of you who consistently engage in debate with those who would challenge the revered doctrines of John Calvin to hopefully recognize yourself and seek to modify your behaviors.
Part of the issue is we see the teaching as bible truth,and any attack on the position as an "Attack on the truth itself". Most calvinists have not read much of Calvin.
In exchange, I for one will admit to the truth of much of what Calvin taught, and vow to engage in fellowship rather than division
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We should be able to fellowship together as joint heirs covered by the Blood of the Cross. If Calvin happened to see these things in scripture before us...it is only because he lived before us.
There is a disturbing (to myself and other solid Southern Baptists) movement among the SBC elite that has been tagged with a catch-all name, the "Young, Restless and Reformed."
let me pause this for a second;
This issue is also called cage stage calvinism by reformed baptists.Persons who study themselves into the doctrine are so surprised and upset that these truths were avoided in their churches that when they come to them there is a full spectrum of reaction and yes...to some degree a hostile reaction not based on wisdom from scripture.
[
B]They are dedicated to bringing Calvinism into the mainstream of the Southern Baptist Convention[/B]
When they discover that the root of the SBC was calvinist
It was at the root of the SBC.....the baptist faith and message is a weak and watered down version of the historic confessions of faith held to by the founders...that is why there is a resurgence...
http://www.founders.org/info/about.html
That is not the total focus of the OP...but i offer it for your consideration.
and making it the foremost teaching of the denomination to the detriment if not outright loss, as some feel, of the traditional understanding of salvation in the Baptist church as encompassed by the SBC membership.[
Weak churches will not stand the attacks from cults and enemies of the cross.The desire is to return to strong doctrinally based churches.
Now, I want to say before I continue, I am far more Calvinist than I am willing to admit.
Anyone who is serious about the word of God believes the verses.Of necessity there must be substantial agreement on many topics simply because of that alone.
The frustration is from the Cal side for the most part is not that they think a person is uneducated but rather that the position itself is so is-represented and slanted that they feel that a person must overcome a stacked deck against the truth each and everytime these issues surface. many times before a person will give a fair reading to any cal teaching the person rejects it out of hand...there are many examples here on BB.
When "confronted" by Calvinists who want to condemn me for "rejecting" the Doctrines of Grace as they understand them, I revert to a position that consistently is identified as Arminian by those with whom I discuss them.
This is subjective for sure. You might meet someone who is a young believer who does not have quite a solid grasp of truth so instead they go ad hominem on you because they cannot scripturally defend the position correctly.they sense they are on the right path but cannot come up with the correct verses fast enough so they come at you instead...
You see non cals do the same..like RM going after Dr.White. Dr.White constantly is a target because he is on the frontlines.RM could not begin to answer him on many areas...even though Dr.White would be quite courteous to him, despite the harsh attitudes.
I have seen Dr.White many times deal very graciously with those who believe differently.
What many a non cal does is just this....Dr.White gets at the heart of a scripture...gives the greek words and makes a biblical case that the person looks quite foolish trying to refute. Then....what is left...say Dr.White is rude and callous when he truth he is not.I have seen it in person.
The problem is, I'm not anywhere close to Arminian.
:godisgood:
I firmly believe no man comes to Christ without the drawing, calling and empowerment of the Holy Spirit
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:thumbs:
I firmly believe that there is no salvation for one who is not so drawn, called, and empowered, that man has nothing within him that would allow him to "seek God." The natural man has no interest in seeking the Lord and Creator of the Universe. I am obviously the product of the teaching that led me to Christ, which is solidly Southern Baptist, and which, despite the opinions of Calvinists on this board and elsewhere, is very very close to being Calvinistic in nature.
As you post this - we could co-exist on this basis.Look ...there have been many godly men who did not see or struggle with a point or part of a point of the teaching...J.C.Ryle...Richard Baxter..for example.{the Atonement}
Yet most every well read Cal loves the writings of these teachers for their work on sanctification.
I believe God allows certain men to address what is needed in their day in their time.No one believer...HAS IT ALL...even that is by God's design.
All of this said, I want to get to the point of the the thread:
:laugh:
The attitude of most people toward Calvinism has more to do with the mood and attitude of most Calvinists than it does with the solidly founded principles of Calvinist thought.
This in and of itself is a valid thought and needs serious consideration.
Unfortunately, what I see is
Well lets go over it;
The paper makes note of the tendency to equate the gospel itself with the Doctrines of Grace, and the awe some Calvinists express in speaking of when they "first accepted" those doctrines, as though they had somehow come to a deeper, richer understanding of the gospel.
What if this is...indeed the case? is it possible that this is so? In other words God did not send a postcard with the 4 spiritual flaws...he sent 66 books to study. The simplicity of the gospel has roots that are through the bible in total. Covenant theology seeks to root the gospel so a person is not like the seed in the shallow soil.
A sinner is told he is a sinner and is guilty of breaking God's holy law.The blood of Jesus is the Divine antidote. Judgement is coming, all sin will be judged...in the Divine substitute or the sinner himself for all eternity.
This could be on a postcard and in a sense be called good news.Yet there is much more to it.When a cal like Spurgeon says it is the gospel...he means that when fully laid out it is one and the same.It is not another gospel..it is the gospel unpacked and revealed in full.
So all 5 pts are part of this revealing and scripture addresses all 5 pts when properly investigated. A careless reading of such study material will not get it done,and quite frankly if the Spirit does not allow someone to see it , nothing will make it happen. yet God uses means...discussion, posting, sermons, teaching etc.
Some even claim that a dilution of the doctrines is somehow a dilution of the gospel. There are those on this board who express these thoughts
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I myself believe that and am prepared to defend that very idea.Simply put if there is a dilution of anything , by definition , what was whole is now less than whole.
Owen's critique gets pretty harsh, and many anti-Calvinists will heartily agree with his viewpoint. But rather than dwell on the negatives of the presentation of Calvinism from those who adhere to it, Owen moves on to express why the presentation is wrong. I include the bare essentials of his points below. Check out the link above to get his full arguments on these points.
I have seen this and others like it..even from cals.
I am sure this thread will be divisive and engender arguments, and I truly wish it would not.
it does not have to, it can be useful if we go over the article.
What I hope here is that we see each other for who we truly are in Christ: A new creation, beyond condemnation, His workmanship, a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, who may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called us out of darkness into His marvelous light.
This is a must as far as a aa common confession goes,it is not debatable.
