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The Doctrine Of Election Is Taught On The Cross!

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tyndale1946

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Luke 23: 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I was listening to a short sermon by Alistair Begg called The Man In The Middle Cross Said I Could Come... He said when he got to Heaven he want to ask him how he made it?... As far as scripture tells us... He was a criminal and that was his lifestyle and was being crucified was his punishment... There was no redeeming value in either criminal but one criminal changed in the sixth hour... Why?... Did he change his mind?... Why did he change and the other one didn't?... Why did he call him Lord?... it is my belief that Luke 23: 39-43 teaches the doctrine of election... And I know there are many on here that agree with what I posted and if those who want to embellish what I posted the floor is yours... To those who disagree, the feel free to tell us who believe in the doctrine of election, like myself, what it does teach?... Brother Glen:)
 
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MrW

Well-Known Member
I disagree. It teaches those who repent and believe will be saved; those who do not will remain lost.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
MrW said:
I disagree. It teaches those who repent and believe will be saved; those who do not will remain lost.
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It does, however the reason why some repent and believe is because they were saved, believing and repentance is the evidence. They were given those gifts because they were Gods elect.
 
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MrW

Well-Known Member
You have it backward. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ AND (subsequent to believing) thou SHALT BE saved. Not before. Immediately upon first believing. Without FAITH, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. He that comes to Him must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
MrW said:
You have it backward. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ AND (subsequent to believing) thou SHALT BE saved. Not before. Immediately upon first believing. Without FAITH, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. He that comes to Him must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
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You have it backwards, One cant believe/ have Faith until they are being saved.
 
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RighteousnessTemperance&

Well-Known Member
Sure, it teaches the doctrine of election. Two thieves have been rejecting Jesus throughout his ministry. They end up on flanking crosses, and still reject Jesus.

However, one then repents, questions if the other even fears God, then confesses Jesus as Lord. Jesus replies that he has now been elected to inherit eternal life with him.

What we know from this is that Jesus does the teaching, does the saving. The one saved did the asking, did the confessing, and even did a bit of evangelizing in the process.
 
AVL1984

AVL1984

<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Brightfame52 said:
It does, however the reason why some repent and believe is because they were saved, believing and repentance is the evidence. They were given those gifts because they were Gods elect.
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So, you're saying they were saved before they were saved??? So, why go through the pretence of repentence. It doesn't make sense if someone is saved regardless.....
 
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tyndale1946

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AVL1984 said:
So, you're saying they were saved before they were saved??? So, why go through the pretence of repentence. It doesn't make sense if someone is saved regardless.....
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Exactly... In the mind of God we are!... He put us in his Son Jesus Christ before we were born... We didn't save ourselves!

Malachi 3: 6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Malachi 3:6. God's mind is absolutely undivided. In practical application, this means that His sovereignty can never be separated from His love; His grace cannot be separated from His omniscience; His judgment cannot be separated from either His mercy or His wrath.

Brother Glen:)
 
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tyndale1946

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
tyndale1946 said:
Exactly... In the mind of God we are!... He put us in his Son Jesus Christ before we were born... We didn't save ourselves!

Malachi 3: 6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Malachi 3:6. God's mind is absolutely undivided. In practical application, this means that His sovereignty can never be separated from His love; His grace cannot be separated from His omniscience; His judgment cannot be separated from either His mercy or His wrath.

Brother Glen:)
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And by the way you can say if I believed that I could go sin up to my eyeballs... But you are forgetting one thing, you are bought with a price and owned by God... And its true your Heaven bound but God could if he wanted to put you through a living Hell on earth before you get there!
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
AVL1984 said:
So, you're saying they were saved before they were saved??? So, why go through the pretence of repentence. It doesn't make sense if someone is saved regardless.....
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They were saved [regenerated] before they believed and or repented. So believing and repentance are evidences of having been saved, and not conditions performed in order to get saved.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
RighteousnessTemperance& said:
Sure, it teaches the doctrine of election. Two thieves have been rejecting Jesus throughout his ministry. They end up on flanking crosses, and still reject Jesus.

However, one then repents, questions if the other even fears God, then confesses Jesus as Lord. Jesus replies that he has now been elected to inherit eternal life with him.

What we know from this is that Jesus does the teaching, does the saving. The one saved did the asking, did the confessing, and even did a bit of evangelizing in the process.
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The confessing thief was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, however he wasn't granted faith in Jesus until the twilight of his life while on his tree.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
RighteousnessTemperance& said:
Not at all the same thing. What is in a text is what is in a text, not in another.

If one wishes to show how one text does not conflict with another, that is one thing. But to claim a text itself teaches something is quite another.
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Yes it is, Christ gives repentance, God gives it Acts 11:18

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

God gives repentance to the acknowledging of the Truth 2 Tim 2:25

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

My inference is scriptural, that's part of bible interpretation and understanding.

The text of the thief teaches also Gods discriminating Mercy !
 
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RighteousnessTemperance&

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Yes it is, Christ gives repentance, God gives it Acts 11:18

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

God gives repentance to the acknowledging of the Truth 2 Tim 2:25

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

My inference is scriptural, that's part of bible interpretation and understanding.

The text of the thief teaches also Gods discriminating Mercy !
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That sort of misperception is one reason why actual discussion can be so difficult to achieve.

So far, at best, one can say that this pericope can be used to illustrate the OP teaching derived from other passages.

It, however, does not teach it per se, and could in fact be used to illustrate a different teaching.

Saying that this pericope teaches the doctrine, or even either doctrine, is to engage in eisegesis.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
RighteousnessTemperance& said:
That sort of misperception is one reason why actual discussion can be so difficult to achieve.

So far, at best, one can say that this pericope can be used to illustrate the OP teaching derived from other passages.

It, however, does not teach it per se, and could in fact be used to illustrate a different teaching.

Saying that this pericope teaches the doctrine, or even either doctrine, is to engage in eisegesis.
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It can be discussed. God gives repentance, thats what was manifested by the one thief, a change of mind.
 
AVL1984

AVL1984

<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
tyndale1946 said:
Exactly... In the mind of God we are!... He put us in his Son Jesus Christ before we were born... We didn't save ourselves!

Malachi 3: 6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Malachi 3:6. God's mind is absolutely undivided. In practical application, this means that His sovereignty can never be separated from His love; His grace cannot be separated from His omniscience; His judgment cannot be separated from either His mercy or His wrath.

Brother Glen:)
Click to expand...

Sorry....then if I didn't need to repent to be saved I could have gone on living like the devil and still been saved....guess I could do that now....::Rolling eyes::
 
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