The doctrine of Election

[Jordan Kurecki]

No one questions the universality of sin "in Adam" but all of us admit that "all" who are "in Adam" are not "in Christ" and never will be unless none are in hell.

So in Romans 3:23 Paul's contextual point is to prove that all men with the exception of Jesus Christ have sinned, but it is not his point to prove all men without exception will be saved. Do you believe in universal salvation and thus none in hell?

Unless you are a universalist you must admit that not "all" without exception will be saved but only "all" without distinction of class, gender or race will be saved.

No.All, meaning all those in Christ will be saved.

It does not mean all kinds of people in Christ will be saved, but that all who are in Christ will be saved. I do not take a universalist position.

God loves the world. That includes every person, Christ is the propitiation for not only
Our sins, but also the sins of the whole world.

Stop redefining the words all and world.

 

[The Biblicist]

No.All, meaning all those in Christ will be saved.

Still "all" does not mean that "all" in Adam will be "in Christ" and so you are forced to define "all" by context.

Stop redefining the words all and world.

This is precisely what you are guilty of. You are jerking these terms out of first century jewish context and placing them in a 20th century non-Jewish context. You must interpret them from a Jewish perspective because that is who is writing and using those terms.

 

[The Biblicist]

Still "all" does not mean that "all" in Adam will be "in Christ" and so you are forced to define "all" by context.




This is precisely what you are guilty of. You are jerking these terms out of first century jewish context and placing them in a 20th century non-Jewish context. You must interpret them from a Jewish perspective because that is who is writing and using those terms.

If you want to know the Jewish perspective of those outside of Judaism just read Acts 10:28:

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation;- Acts 10:28a

or read John 4 and the response of the Samaritan woman to Christ even speaking to her (Jn. 4:9) or look at the all jewish church at Jerusalem and their refusal to even preach the gospel to the Gentiles so that God had to call another apostles to send to the Gentiles in Acts 9.

When Paul met with Peter, James and John, they recognized Paul's call to the uncircumcision but made it clear that their calling was to the circumcision (Gal. 3:9).

When the Jew used the term "world" it was not inclusive of the Jews but used to describe those outside of Judaism which they regarded as Gentiles and "unclean." So for Jesus to tell a ruler of the Jews that God so loved "the world" and not merely the Jewish nation that was news to the Jews. For John to tell his Jewish Christian audiance that Christ was the propitiation for the "whole world" and not merely the Jews was news for the Jews.

1. Those God loves he chastens (Heb. 12:5) but he does not chasten all humans without exception.

2. God loved Israel ABOVE all other nations proving his love is not equal for all - Deut. 7:7-9

3. God loved Jacob but hated Esau - Rom. 9:13 - If you respond these two represent nations then it increases your problems as nations are nothing more than less than a plurality of individuals joined together by a common language and culture.

4. God hates all workers of iniquity and not just iniquity - Psa. 5:5

5. God's benevolent love is upon the just and unjust

6. God's redemptive is restricted to the elect.

The actual Greek grammatical construction of "all" in the passages you use is the anarthous construct which can mean "all kinds, classes, genders." The use of "world" in redemptive passages refers to all mankind without distinction but not all without exception.

 

[utilyan]

If you want to know the Jewish perspective of those outside of Judaism just read Acts 10:28:

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation;- Acts 10:28a

or read John 4 and the response of the Samaritan woman to Christ even speaking to her (Jn. 4:9) or look at the all jewish church at Jerusalem and their refusal to even preach the gospel to the Gentiles so that God had to call another apostles to send to the Gentiles in Acts 9.

When Paul met with Peter, James and John, they recognized Paul's call to the uncircumcision but made it clear that their calling was to the circumcision (Gal. 3:9).

When the Jew used the term "world" it was not inclusive of the Jews but used to describe those outside of Judaism which they regarded as Gentiles and "unclean." So for Jesus to tell a ruler of the Jews that God so loved "the world" and not merely the Jewish nation that was news to the Jews. For John to tell his Jewish Christian audiance that Christ was the propitiation for the "whole world" and not merely the Jews was news for the Jews.

1. Those God loves he chastens (Heb. 12:5) but he does not chasten all humans without exception.

2. God loved Israel ABOVE all other nations proving his love is not equal for all - Deut. 7:7-9

3. God loved Jacob but hated Esau - Rom. 9:13 - If you respond these two represent nations then it increases your problems as nations are nothing more than less than a plurality of individuals joined together by a common language and culture.

4. God hates all workers of iniquity and not just iniquity - Psa. 5:5

5. God's benevolent love is upon the just and unjust

6. God's redemptive is restricted to the elect.

The actual Greek grammatical construction of "all" in the passages you use is the anarthous construct which can mean "all kinds, classes, genders." The use of "world" in redemptive passages refers to all mankind without distinction but not all without exception.

Double standards. If "all" only applies limited in wanting to be saved, Then "all" applies limited in who has sinned.

You say word "ALL" can't mean everyone when it comes to God loving all.

And then the word "ALL" really does means every single person on earth when it comes to who sins.


The main focus which Calvinists are in denial of is God declaring his absolute WANT and DESIRE by his COMMAND.

In short if God wanted anyone damned he would not COMMAND them not to sin, he would command them to sin.

The reason a sin is a sin is you are going against God's WANT and DESIRE. Its not a FAKE want and desire, GOD IS TRUE, that is his TRUE want and desire.


I'm not saying everyone is going to be saved, I'm saying GOD's Command states his WANT and DESIRE is for all men to be saved.

 

[The Biblicist]

Double standards. If "all" only applies limited in wanting to be saved, Then "all" applies limited in who has sinned.

All things being equal your reasoning would be valid. However, you have a slight problem with your rationale as Jesus plainly says "no man can come to me except the Father draw him" and Paul says the natural man is in a state of enmity with God and thus your rationale fails in "wanting to be saved" as "there is none that seeketh after God no,not one and yet all the fallen in Adam do want to sin as it comes naturally.

You say word "ALL" can't mean everyone when it comes to God loving all.

And then the word "ALL" really does means every single person on earth when it comes to who sins.

It is God that said he "hated Esau" and Loved Jacob not me (Rom.9:13). You can take it up with him the next time you see him.

The main focus which Calvinists are in denial of is God declaring his absolute WANT and DESIRE by his COMMAND.

I don't deny it is God's revealed will that none should perish any more than it is his revealed will that none should sin but his revealed will does not change the fact that "all" do sin" and many do perish and "all" would perish unless God .

In short if God wanted anyone damned he would not COMMAND them not to sin, he would command them to sin.

Doesn't have to as it comes naturally and freely.

The reason a sin is a sin is you are going against God's WANT and DESIRE. Its not a FAKE want and desire, GOD IS TRUE, that is his TRUE want and desire.


I'm not saying everyone is going to be saved, I'm saying GOD's Command states his WANT and DESIRE is for all men to be saved.

You are confusing God's revealed will with his determinate will and you are confusing "want" and "desire" with revealed accountability.

 

[utilyan]

All things being equal your reasoning would be valid. However, you have a slight problem with your rationale as Jesus plainly says "no man can come to me except the Father draw him" and Paul says the natural man is in a state of enmity with God and thus your rationale fails in "wanting to be saved" as "there is none that seeketh after God no,not one and yet all the fallen in Adam do want to sin as it comes naturally.



It is God that said he "hated Esau" and Loved Jacob not me (Rom.9:13). You can take it up with him the next time you see him.


I don't deny it is God's revealed will that none should perish any more than it is his revealed will that none should sin but his revealed will does not change the fact that "all" do sin" and many do perish and "all" would perish unless God .



Doesn't have to as it comes naturally and freely.



You are confusing God's revealed will with his determinate will and you are confusing "want" and "desire" with revealed accountability.

Absurd.
Satan is not God. Leave deception to him. God is not a Liar.

I'm not debating that none will perish. Simply what God wants and desires is stated in command.

Only elect are in heaven and only reprobate are in hell. That's fine.



If God commands you to sit down, he WANTS and DESIRES for you to sit down.

If you sit or don't sit, that doesn't change God's want and desire, he still wants you to sit down.


People can be damned, God does not want them to be damned.

Because God's command is clear sufficient grace comes from God's want and Desire.


In a nutshell. When I sin I say its my fault. When you sin, you say its God's fault.

 

[David Crosby]

I somewhat read through these forums to maybe get some good pondering thoughts as I fellowship with our Lord in His word. And I realize foreknowledge is God knowing all things, He will never learn anything new. If He can learn anything new, then He doesn't know all things. James said, "Known unto Him are all things from the beginning." So it seems according to His foreknowledge I'd say is the concept of predestination, election, and chosen. Although, as Christ Jesus is the theme of the whole Bible, it seems to me that they all pertain to His Bride. Anyway, my thoughts are that God in all of His wisdom knows the choices each person is going to make. But He doesn't make the choice for you. He only knows in advance that which you are going to choose.

 

[The Biblicist]

I somewhat read through these forums to maybe get some good pondering thoughts as I fellowship with our Lord in His word. And I realize foreknowledge is God knowing all things, He will never learn anything new. If He can learn anything new, then He doesn't know all things. James said, "Known unto Him are all things from the beginning." So it seems according to His foreknowledge I'd say is the concept of predestination, election, and chosen. Although, as Christ Jesus is the theme of the whole Bible, it seems to me that they all pertain to His Bride. Anyway, my thoughts are that God in all of His wisdom knows the choices each person is going to make. But He doesn't make the choice for you. He only knows in advance that which you are going to choose.

Hi David,

I understand your reasoning processes but the word "know" in Scripture does not have the same idea as used in normal conversation today. For example, in Genesis it is said that "Adam KNEW Eve" and yet we know he had cognitive knowledge of Eve long before this was said. It is a term that denotes intimate knowledge. Furthermore, God's purpose of election is specifically said to be separate from actions of men after birth (Rom. 9:11). Paul says that God works all things according to His purpose not according to foreseen actions by men (Eph. 1:11). In Acts 2:22 the Greek construction makes "foreknowledge" synonymous with "determinate counsel". In Romans 8:28-29 God's purpose precedes God's foreknowledge instead of vice versa. Like a carpenters blue print precedes the carpenters building actions. He foreknows the building plan not because he foresaw it, but because he purposed it and that is the knowledge he has predetermined to work all things according to.

In Ephesians 1:4 we are not chosen in him before the world because God foresaw our holiness (set apart by faith) but we are set apart by faith because God chose us before the world began. In 2 Thessalonans 2:13 we are chosen "to salvation" not because God foresaw our salvation. Furthermore, that salvation we were chosen unto consisted of saving faith ("through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth).

The problem that you have and that most people have is the failure to see that election to salvation presupposes the fall has already occurred in the mind of God or else there is no need to chose to "salvation." Thus man has fallen by his own free choice and that choice has lost his ability and desire to either seek God or come to God. Jesus said "no man can come" and the word "can" refers to ability. therefore, there can be no such thing as foreseen faith as no man "can" come to Christ by faith and faith is not inherent in man. In addition no man desires to come because the fallen state is a mindset that is at enmity with God (Rom. 8:7).So the only possible way any man can come to Christ in the future is by divine intervention rather than merely looking ahead to see what man might do, as God has already done that as recorded in Psalm 14:1-3 and when he looked down upon mankind he saw NONE who would seek him.

It is this fallen mass of mankind that is "condemned already" (Jn. 3:17) that God can in full justice continue to damn to hell and be fully glorified. However, "election" is an act of "mercy" (Rom. 9:16, 18, 23) and "mercy" presupposes already just condemnation. Therefore, to choose to save any fallen God hating human being by the sacrifice of His only Son is something that every fallen creature would love to participate in killing him and no fallen creature deserves.

None are elected or chosen to hell becuase mankind has already made that responsible choice in Adam and come into this world loving and practicing sin. Election is in spite of willful rejection, full hatred and complete resistance to God. Election is to salvation by pure grace, pure mercy.

God is fully glorified in allowing all other humans to continue right on their freely chosen path to hell and he is glorified by his act of mercy in choosing some to salvation and the non-elect won't complain because they want nothing to do with God nor can they complain because they are getting justice while the elect cannot claim any more merit than the non-elect as the were "children of wrath even as others" and don't deserve mercy.

Here is the point. God is perfectly just in passing over some and choosing others as according to pure justice all equally deserve hell. God therefore can do what He wills with the mass of fallen mankind because the whole mass if justice is the criteria of what God should do is eternal condemnation of all.

 

[utilyan]

Hi David,

I understand your reasoning processes but the word "know" in Scripture does not have the same idea as used in normal conversation today. For example, in Genesis it is said that "Adam KNEW Eve" and yet we know he had cognitive knowledge of Eve long before this was said. It is a term that denotes intimate knowledge. Furthermore, God's purpose of election is specifically said to be separate from actions of men after birth (Rom. 9:11). Paul says that God works all things according to His purpose not according to foreseen actions by men (Eph. 1:11). In Acts 2:22 the Greek construction makes "foreknowledge" synonymous with "determinate counsel". In Romans 8:28-29 God's purpose precedes God's foreknowledge instead of vice versa. Like a carpenters blue print precedes the carpenters building actions. He foreknows the building plan not because he foresaw it, but because he purposed it and that is the knowledge he has predetermined to work all things according to.

In Ephesians 1:4 we are not chosen in him before the world because God foresaw our holiness (set apart by faith) but we are set apart by faith because God chose us before the world began. In 2 Thessalonans 2:13 we are chosen "to salvation" not because God foresaw our salvation. Furthermore, that salvation we were chosen unto consisted of saving faith ("through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth).

The problem that you have and that most people have is the failure to see that election to salvation presupposes the fall has already occurred in the mind of God or else there is no need to chose to "salvation." Thus man has fallen by his own free choice and that choice has lost his ability and desire to either seek God or come to God. Jesus said "no man can come" and the word "can" refers to ability. therefore, there can be no such thing as foreseen faith as no man "can" come to Christ by faith and faith is not inherent in man. In addition no man desires to come because the fallen state is a mindset that is at enmity with God (Rom. 8:7).So the only possible way any man can come to Christ in the future is by divine intervention rather than merely looking ahead to see what man might do, as God has already done that as recorded in Psalm 14:1-3 and when he looked down upon mankind he saw NONE who would seek him.

It is this fallen mass of mankind that is "condemned already" (Jn. 3:17) that God can in full justice continue to damn to hell and be fully glorified. However, "election" is an act of "mercy" (Rom. 9:16, 18, 23) and "mercy" presupposes already just condemnation. Therefore, to choose to save any fallen God hating human being by the sacrifice of His only Son is something that every fallen creature would love to participate in killing him and no fallen creature deserves.

None are elected or chosen to hell becuase mankind has already made that responsible choice in Adam and come into this world loving and practicing sin. Election is in spite of willful rejection, full hatred and complete resistance to God. Election is to salvation by pure grace, pure mercy.

God is fully glorified in allowing all other humans to continue right on their freely chosen path to hell and he is glorified by his act of mercy in choosing some to salvation and the non-elect won't complain because they want nothing to do with God nor can they complain because they are getting justice while the elect cannot claim any more merit than the non-elect as the were "children of wrath even as others" and don't deserve mercy.

Here is the point. God is perfectly just in passing over some and choosing others as according to pure justice all equally deserve hell. God therefore can do what He wills with the mass of fallen mankind because the whole mass if justice is the criteria of what God should do is eternal condemnation of all.

Apart from God no man can EXIST, you can't beat your own heart. When pointing out the identity of any man I can say God is an absolute fundamental ingredient to which if there is no God there is no man.

A better indicator of this is Jesus Christ who is the example of a standard man.

Everyone who is in heaven is there because God. Everyone who is in hell is a reprobate.

There is no debate here, this is not a problem


The PROBLEM is denying God's desire and want perfectly indicated by his command.

The attack on God's perfectly good character. Trying to push the idea that God is deceptive and fake. The #1 thing that stands in the way of someone trying to push for a Evil God is a God who Loves everyone and is Good.

The most loving God, the highest mercy, perfect hero. God commands for NNE to sin. God commands for all to love God, Jesus, and to Love neighbor.

God does not want anyone to be damned because SIN itself implies damnation, Sin cannot even be Sin unless you are doing what God does NOT WANT nor DESIRE you to do.

When Jesus Christ commanded a cripple man to walk, he walked.

If God commands you not to sin there a complete and sufficient grace to never sin again as God wills.
Anything that would have you second guess otherwise is a LACK of FAITH.

 

[The Biblicist]

If the Roman Catholics had any rational or Biblical based reasons to answer I would gladly answer. But what I have read so far is so irrational and lacking of any Biblical basis it would be an exercise of futility to even address.

 

[utilyan]

If the Roman Catholics had any rational or Biblical based reasons to answer I would gladly answer. But what I have read so far is so irrational and lacking of any Biblical basis it would be an exercise of futility to even address.

Thou shalt love thy God, Thou shalt love thy neighbor. Its in the bible believe me.

If a Calvinist does not deny the command of God as stated by scripture, they would have no choice but to accept it as God's WANT and DESIRE.

Instead they run away from the issue like our friend here. Tail between the legs. And try to sell you the idea of a sugar coated Evil God who employs deception in his very command. A God who because is free to do evil indeed does evil. And when you sin they say its GOD's FAULT not yours.

Brothers and Sisters, when you sin it is ENTIRELY your fault, WITTHOUT EXCUSE. Its not because God didn't give you an extra heaping of grace, or the mercy tank ran out of juice. It is because YOU CHOSE to disobey the Lord.