The Doctrine Of Election...

[preacher4truth]

I say it is a gift because of what Jesus the author and finisher of the faith did and the response of God the Father to what his Son did. The grace of God is a response to the faith of the Son.

Before it was said, "Let there be light," it was determined the lamb of God without spot and without blemish, the Son of God to be born of a being taken from another being created in the image of God would die, shed his blood, pour out his soul unto death and be no more. At about or at the exact moment this was determined God who cannot lie also made a promise. The hope of eternal life.

Did it require faith for the sinless Son of God the only begotten of woman to lay down his life for our sins?

The moment of the day in which he cried, " My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me, into thy hands I commend my spirit, and he breathed his last, Faith came. Three days and three nights later the grace that bringeth salvation came and thus faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

Grace through the faith of Jesus authored eternal salvation. Eph 2:8 + Heb 5:7-9 also Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of the faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Blessed the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Jesus speaking as The Prophet, "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;" John 5:26 The son of God received the promise of God and because he has received the promise of God, we have been given the Spirit of God, making us heirs not inheritors of the same promise. Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Correct me where I am wrong.

Hello percho,

What I believe you are saying is that faith comes from God -- that all good things come from God concerning salvation and not from men. To this I agree wholly.

I am saying the same things as well, as it is Biblical. We have nothing that we haven't received, 1 Cor 4:7, and we can boast in nothing before God, 1 Cor. 1:26-31, and that includes our alleged 'choosing,' but this is actually what is being done in the previous post I responded to. Thus my prior statement is biblical yet some turn salvation into a reward (perhaps unintentionally without considering their error) when in fact it is a gift given, and the elect merely recognize they have been saved. Salvation is not a reward given because of our choice, it is a gift given by His choice as the context of the above Scripture conveys.

 

[percho]

Hello percho,

What I believe you are saying is that faith comes from God -- that all good things come from God concerning salvation and not from men. To this I agree wholly.

I am saying the same things as well, as it is Biblical. We have nothing that we haven't received, 1 Cor 4:7, and we can boast in nothing before God, 1 Cor. 1:26-31, and that includes our alleged 'choosing,' but this is actually what is being done in the previous post I responded to. Thus my prior statement is biblical yet some turn salvation into a reward (perhaps unintentionally without considering their error) when in fact it is a gift given, and the elect merely recognize they have been saved. Salvation is not a reward given because of our choice, it is a gift given by His choice as the context of the above Scripture conveys.

You said it well. Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

From the foundation of the world God foreknew that his anointed, the Christ, would be the the firstborn from the dead, firstborn of all creation in the image of God, and the elect conformed to the image of his Son that he might be the firstborn of many brethren.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


To me the key word here is the prefix first. By prefixing with the word first implies to me there are to be others following. The first fruit now the rest of the fruit later.


Thoughts?

 

[Allan]

Oh, so salvation is then a reward, not a gift.

Nope, not according to scripture.

 

[Allan]

Hello percho,

What I believe you are saying is that faith comes from God -- that all good things come from God concerning salvation and not from men. To this I agree wholly.

I am saying the same things as well, as it is Biblical. We have nothing that we haven't received, 1 Cor 4:7, and we can boast in nothing before God, 1 Cor. 1:26-31, and that includes our alleged 'choosing,' but this is actually what is being done in the previous post I responded to. Thus my prior statement is biblical yet some turn salvation into a reward (perhaps unintentionally without considering their error) when in fact it is a gift given, and the elect merely recognize they have been saved. Salvation is not a reward given because of our choice, it is a gift given by His choice as the context of the above Scripture conveys.

He is saying we are saved because of the faith 'of' Jesus.. not in/on Jesus. If I remember correctly, his view is that we are saved because of the faith that Jesus had. I could be wrong, it he was saying pretty much that very thing when you responded to him.

Additionally, please show where I stated that faith is not a gift from God. I agree that faith is a gift, I just don't agree with your definition and distiction.
Also, I'm not sure what you meant about "..salvation is a gift give and the elect mearly reconginize they have been saved"; If I'm readying you correctly - the elect do not, in any shape, form, or fashion, 'recongize' they are or 'have been saved'.. the elect realize their need FOR God TO save them.

In realation to your 1 Cor 4:7 - the context of the passage actually shows the Corinthians were evaluating different servants of God and comparing one with another, thinking themselves to be very spiritual (or more so than other believers). In essense, Paul told them they were carnal and that their judgment meant nothing to a spiritual servant of God. A true servant of God is a steward of God’s wealth, and his only concern is pleasing God, not men. At the judgment seat of Christ, God will reveal the secrets and give out the rewards, and every man will have his own reward (3:8) and his own glory from God (4:5). To live for the praise of men is to be false to our stewardship.

What you have then is Paul summarizing the whole matter: they were not to go beyond the Word of God and treat men other than as Scripture allows. They were to love and honor their spiritual leaders, and obey them as they teach the Word; but to compare one leader with another, or to give glory to one over another, was contrary to God’s Word and had to be avoided. After all, it is God who makes one 'believer' to differ from another believer; every spiritual gift a believer has comes from God (Paul quantifies spiritual gifts later in I Cor 12)! Who dares to boast over a gift God chooses to give to His children and by His desire, does not make them all the same?

'Saving faith', as many presume hold to such due more to their theological construct than any biblical statements about about 'saving faith'. In fact, it is interesting that scripture repeated shows just the opposite.. that man does in fact HAVE faith and uses it constantly. What he doesn't have or know is the true object OF faith in which to believe, and that is where God comes in and becomes the first cause. If you want to be biblical, the gift of faith is Christ Jesus.

 

[Iconoclast]

He is saying we are saved because of the faith 'of' Jesus.. not in/on Jesus. If I remember correctly, his view is that we are saved because of the faith that Jesus had. I could be wrong, it he was saying pretty much that very thing when you responded to him.

Additionally, please show where I stated that faith is not a gift from God. I agree that faith is a gift, I just don't agree with your definition and distiction.
Also, I'm not sure what you meant about "..salvation is a gift give and the elect mearly reconginize they have been saved"; If I'm readying you correctly - the elect do not, in any shape, form, or fashion, 'recongize' they are or 'have been saved'.. the elect realize their need FOR God TO save them.

In realation to your 1 Cor 4:7 - the context of the passage actually shows the Corinthians were evaluating different servants of God and comparing one with another, thinking themselves to be very spiritual (or more so than other believers). In essense, Paul told them they were carnal and that their judgment meant nothing to a spiritual servant of God. A true servant of God is a steward of God’s wealth, and his only concern is pleasing God, not men. At the judgment seat of Christ, God will reveal the secrets and give out the rewards, and every man will have his own reward (3:8) and his own glory from God (4:5). To live for the praise of men is to be false to our stewardship.

What you have then is Paul summarizing the whole matter: they were not to go beyond the Word of God and treat men other than as Scripture allows. They were to love and honor their spiritual leaders, and obey them as they teach the Word; but to compare one leader with another, or to give glory to one over another, was contrary to God’s Word and had to be avoided. After all, it is God who makes one 'believer' to differ from another believer; every spiritual gift a believer has comes from God (Paul quantifies spiritual gifts later in I Cor 12)! Who dares to boast over a gift God chooses to give to His children and by His desire, does not make them all the same?

'Saving faith', as many presume hold to such due more to their theological construct than any biblical statements about about 'saving faith'. In fact, it is interesting that scripture repeated shows just the opposite.. that man does in fact HAVE faith and uses it constantly. What he doesn't have or know is the true object OF faith in which to believe, and that is where God comes in and becomes the first cause. If you want to be biblical, the gift of faith is Christ Jesus.

Hello Allan,

it is refreshing to see how you work through the verses and offer your understanding and how you view it where ever the text goes:thumbs:

Your posts can be and are instructive to many.:applause:

 

[percho]

He is saying we are saved because of the faith 'of' Jesus.. not in/on Jesus. If I remember correctly, his view is that we are saved because of the faith that Jesus had. I could be wrong, it he was saying pretty much that very thing when you responded to him.

Additionally, please show where I stated that faith is not a gift from God. I agree that faith is a gift, I just don't agree with your definition and distiction.
Also, I'm not sure what you meant about "..salvation is a gift give and the elect mearly reconginize they have been saved"; If I'm readying you correctly - the elect do not, in any shape, form, or fashion, 'recongize' they are or 'have been saved'.. the elect realize their need FOR God TO save them.

In realation to your 1 Cor 4:7 - the context of the passage actually shows the Corinthians were evaluating different servants of God and comparing one with another, thinking themselves to be very spiritual (or more so than other believers). In essense, Paul told them they were carnal and that their judgment meant nothing to a spiritual servant of God. A true servant of God is a steward of God’s wealth, and his only concern is pleasing God, not men. At the judgment seat of Christ, God will reveal the secrets and give out the rewards, and every man will have his own reward (3:8) and his own glory from God (4:5). To live for the praise of men is to be false to our stewardship.

What you have then is Paul summarizing the whole matter: they were not to go beyond the Word of God and treat men other than as Scripture allows. They were to love and honor their spiritual leaders, and obey them as they teach the Word; but to compare one leader with another, or to give glory to one over another, was contrary to God’s Word and had to be avoided. After all, it is God who makes one 'believer' to differ from another believer; every spiritual gift a believer has comes from God (Paul quantifies spiritual gifts later in I Cor 12)! Who dares to boast over a gift God chooses to give to His children and by His desire, does not make them all the same?

'Saving faith', as many presume hold to such due more to their theological construct than any biblical statements about about 'saving faith'. In fact, it is interesting that scripture repeated shows just the opposite.. that man does in fact HAVE faith and uses it constantly. What he doesn't have or know is the true object OF faith in which to believe, and that is where God comes in and becomes the first cause. If you want to be biblical, the gift of faith is Christ Jesus.

You are correct, faith is the resurrected Christ in you, the hope of glory which comes to you by the gift of the Holy Spirit of promise.

The resurrected Christ is; The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

Paraphrased: Gal. 3:23 Before the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen (faith) came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen (faith) which should be revealed. --- What revealed that which we were shut up unto? The resurrection? V24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster unto Christ, that we might be justified by the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen (faith) V25 But after the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen (faith) did come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Tell me if that makes sense or not and compare that to Romans 6 concerning under law VS under grace and also to Romans 3:19-22 concerning the righteousness of God.

The Holy Spirit makes/begets one as an heir of God and a joint heir with Christ of the glory of God.

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. Romans 5:17 KJV
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil. 3:21 KJV
Who by (through) him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21 KJV

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:6,7

 

[MB]

“Then, throwing off all reserve, Paul and Barnabas said, "We were bound to proclaim God’s Message to you first. But since you spurn it and judge yourselves to be unworthy of the Life of the Ages*—*well, we turn to the Gentiles. For such is the Lord’s command to us. <"‘I have placed Thee,’> He says of Christ, <‘as a light to the Gentiles, in order that Thou mayest be a Saviour as far as the remotest parts of the earth.’"> The Gentiles listened with delight and extolled the Lord’s Message; and all who were pre-destined to the Life of the Ages believed.” (Ac 13:46-48 Wey)

Edward;
The truth is the words ordained or predestine is not in the Greek new testament in Act 13:48. You must be using something other than the Bible such as the Amplified.
MB

 

[Van]

The Doctrine of Election according to whom?

by Charles D.Mallary (1801-1864). A snip from his booklet follows.

Election harms no man --election damns no man. It does not pursue the criminal and force him down the precipice of ruin: but it plucks multitudes from that fatal brink and plants them on the rock of ages. In the execution of its merciful and eternal designs, it gathers out from the guilty,polluted,dying mass,...a great multitude which no man can number,of all nations, kindred and people and tongues;sweetly draws, graciously subdues; washes out their stains in the blood of the Lamb;guides them safely through all their perils and conflicts,and with them peoples the shores and fills the thrones of the celestial Canaan. If all had been left to perish, God's throne had been guiltless;that some are saved, shall redound to the honor of His name, and proclaim the riches of His grace through eternal ages.

Why quarrel with that purpose which results in blessings like these? Why fall out with that arrangement which unfolds nothing but pure,unmixed and effectual mercy,and without which not one ray of saving light had ever pierced the dark night which sin has rolled upon the prospects of mortals? Why one culprit should be savingly pitied rather than another,may never be fully explained to finite minds;but infinite wisdom has the best of reasons for all its acts: let mortals bow in holy adoration, and exclaim, "even so Father,for it seemeth good in thy sight."

1) Election for salvation harms no man. True

2) Being fallen and condemned - the status of all not chosen for salvation - means damnation. We are condemned at conception and damned at death if we were not chosen for salvation.

3) To say non-election does not cause the wrath of God to fall upon the fallen is false.

4) Election does pluck individuals living without mercy out of the realm of darkness and transfers them into the kingdom of His Son.

5) God does choose for salvation individuals who have been drawn, who have heard and learned from the Father, and thus have put their faith in Christ, for we are chosen through faith in the truth.

6) Once chosen and placed spiritually "in Christ" we then undergo the circumcision of Christ, our sin burden removed, and we arise in Christ a new creation, born anew from above.

7) No one is quarreling with the Biblical Doctrine of Election, it is the mistaken Calvinist view that must be rejected because it is unbiblical.

8) Scripture explains why one culprit is chosen and another is passed over, God chooses individuals through faith in the truth.

Bottom line, election for salvation is clearly presented in scripture, and the Calvinist view nullifies those very verses.

 

[Protestant]

simple.. Why? because I believed and they choose not to.

Thanks, again, Allan, for your response.

But how does your view square with Scripture?

According to your testimony, YOUR CHOICE was the deciding factor in God's electing and predestinating you to glory, thereby making the Lord God Almighty beholden to sinful man.....who becomes, by inference, greater than His Creator, holding his Creator hostage to sinful man's mutable evil whims.

But Scripture declares a much different God......One who does not base His eternal decrees on anything outside of His own will.

Furthermore, saving faith is a miraculous gift from God alone, given at His good pleasure to undeserving sinners. It is impossible for sinful wretched mankind to manufacture saving faith because saving faith is all of the Spirit, the flesh profits nothing.

The fact that you do not acknowledge this miraculous, undeserved gift from God alone, but instead take the credit, is quite troubling since the Holy Spirit cannot but teach this infallible truth to all His Elect.

 

[Allan]

Thanks, again, Allan, for your response.

But how does your view square with Scripture?

According to your testimony, YOUR CHOICE was the deciding factor in God's electing and predestinating you to glory, thereby making the Lord God Almighty beholden to sinful man.....who becomes, by inference, greater than His Creator, holding his Creator hostage to sinful man's mutable evil whims.

But Scripture declares a much different God......One who does not base His eternal decrees on anything outside of His own will.

Furthermore, saving faith is a miraculous gift from God alone, given at His good pleasure to undeserving sinners. It is impossible for sinful wretched mankind to manufacture saving faith because saving faith is all of the Spirit, the flesh profits nothing.

The fact that you do not acknowledge this miraculous, undeserved gift from God alone, but instead take the credit, is quite troubling since the Holy Spirit cannot but teach this infallible truth to all His Elect.

Now we are moving from scripture to exhaulted ideology. I say 'exhaulted' because you are not actually dealing with what I wrote but your own presumptions.

First, show where I ever stated my faith is the deciding factor in God 'electing' me. In fact, please show where you or I ever spoke of 'election' or 'predestination' specifically. I hold immutably to the fact that God does not base His eternal decrees on anything outside of His own will. The truth is, you cannot even go back over the last 7 years or so I've been on to find any other ascertion from me. So let us graciously keep with what is actually stated andtry to keep away from presumptions of what 'one may think' others are saying or meaning.

Lastly, please show where scripture ever states or implies any such thing as 'saving faith' in distinction from other biblical faith. Till then, it is a strictly human contrivence base entirely upon it as a pre-requisit for a theological system. A system (like all systems) that while based on doctrine, itself is not doctrinal truth, because it is trying to understand 'how' and 'why' God does what He does.

I have many issues with unbiblical version of this distinct kind of 'faith' called 'saving faith' that is, as stated, distinct from other biblical, God described faith in scripture. 'Saving faith' is the only faith that God gives that cannot be refused to be used. Once given, you cannot help but stand in absolute faith and see it's completion. However, all other faith must be something a believer does by choice (even knowing the heart of God) and that 'can' be ignored, reasoned away, or rejected, even potentially their whole life. In other words a person can live their whole life and never act in faith on something God has revealed . Yet what you cannot find is NOTHING in scripture which ever makes any such claims as a kind of faith being 'irresistable' to use, but always and in ever instance, something a person must choose to do or even not do.

It is interesting to me how it must be separated into distinct catagories, not because God did it, but that man in trying to understand what God is doing has done this, even though God never once says there is any difference between saving faith and other types of faith. Faith is faith to God; Ever was and always shall be.

 

[Rippon]

1) Election for salvation harms no man. True


Election does pluck individuals living without mercy out of the realm of darkness and transfers them into the kingdom of His Son.

The above statements by you indicated agreement with a portion of Mallary's brief quote regarding election.

No one is quarreling with the Biblical Doctrine of Election, it is the mistaken Calvinist view that must be rejected because it is unbiblical.

Apparently you agree with portions of the Calvinistic understanding of election as evidenced above. You did not express disagreement with anything else in his little essay.

Bottom line, election for salvation is clearly presented in scripture, and the Calvinist view nullifies those very verses.

Mere assertions with no proof Van.