The doctrine of Hell

[evangelist6589]

there is scripture for that, hidden in plain sight.

John 5:28-29 shows all men will be raised, and shows no indication that there are two different types of resurrection body

Romans 5:12-21 shows that because of Adam, all men die physically and because of Christ all men will be raised to "rightness of life" - physical resurrection. It is almost universally misunderstood to mean we are born headed to hell, but the wording and context just don't support that view. It is also corroborated in 1Cor 15:21-22

Then later in 1Corinthians, Paul expounded on the body that dies and the body that will be raised. He is using language which sings to the believer.....

Sown perishable, mortal, weak, dishonorable. Raised imperishable, immortal, in power, honorable.

But he also has mentioned all men being raised, ad does not distinguish a different type for unbeliever.

Interestingly, what drove me to study this indepth was nunerous debates over Paul's use of "natural vs. spiritual" bodies.

A couple of notes about that:

Most seem to understand "spiritual" as spirit-form, and "natural" as physical. But that's waaayyy off the mark.

Natural is immature and carnal. In a word, sin-wrecked

Spiritual is mature and godly. Or not sin-wrecked.

The bodies of believer and unbeliever alike will be raised not able to die. Sin-free flesh

So you do not believe that we are born and headed to Hell or did I misunderstand you?

 

[evangelist6589]

Alright, so hopefully this works this time. I’m breaking a lot of new ground here for me, as I’ve never done much of a study on hell. With that being said, there’s a wall of text incoming, but I’m open to discussion and/or correction.


Firstly, I think it’s important that we distinguish between Hell and the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:13-15 talks about death and Hell giving up the dead which were in them, who were then thrown into the Lake of Fire. So it appears that there is a distinction to be made.


What do we know about Hell? Well, we know that it was next to paradise, also known as Abraham’s Bosom. However, we know that there was a “great gulf” fixed between them. We also know that Hell is a place of torment with heat, since we know that the rich man was so parched that he was hoping for even a drop of water to roll off of Lazarus’ finger to help quench his thirst.


Mark 9 also talks about the torment in verses 43-48. Five times in those six verses it says “the fire is not quenched”, or a variation. Three times it says “Where their worm dieth not”. So, there will definitely be torment and pain.


Interestingly enough, there appears to be a sleight contradiction here with Revelation. We know that Hell itself is not eternal, as it’s cast into the Lake of Fire later. But, the fire that Hell contains is. Basically, we just simply have to understand that the place of Hell is not eternal, but the torment is. When a soul leaves Hell for the Lake of Fire, it’s just a change of position and not a change of predicament.


We know that when Old Testament saints died, they went to paradise to await the resurrection of Christ. When Christ arose, he took the souls of the saints to Heaven. However, there’s no indication that the souls in Hell ever moved. So, we can deduce that they are still there, awaiting judgment at the Great White Throne at which time they will then be cast into the Lake of Fire.


On the subject of ethereality versus corporeality, I’m inclined to think that Hell is a literal ethereal place while the Lake of Fire is a literal corporeal place. We know that after the resurrection that all the saved will have perfect bodies and live forever basking in God’s glory (although the specifics aren’t exactly known, we just know that we’ll enjoy it). I am of the opinion that the souls of the lost will also be resurrected with perfect bodies, capable of living through eternity future in perfect torment, as opposed to the perfect joy of Heaven. I don’t have any Bible to back this up; it’s just speculation on my part.


As to the location of Hell, it’s my understanding that the historical belief is that Hell is in the center of the Earth. Certainly we know that under the crust of the Earth is molten rock. However, we’ve learned that the center of the Earth is solid. It’s possible that Hell is in a shell in the center of the earth. But it’s more likely that the idea of Hell in the center of the Earth came from the Greek’s “Hades”, which describes both the place of the dead and the deity that oversaw that domain. To the Greeks, when a man died he went to the underworld, which was thought to be literally under the earth. Interestingly enough, the Greeks gave us the tradition of putting pennies on a dead man’s eyes. They used to put coins on dead men’s eyes so that the dead person would have money to pay Charon (also Kharon), the boat keeper who could deliver them to the afterlife across the river Styx in Hades. If they didn’t have the money to pay him, they’d be stuck in limbo until they found a way to pay him. – Side note – This sounds a lot like the beginning of the doctrine of purgatory to me.


As to what the verses mean that you cited TCassidy, there are a few possibilities. One of the likely possibilities is that it is simply a reflection of the belief of the time that Hell was at the center of the earth. I think an even more likely explanation though, is that it is simply a literary device to be all inclusive. Think of a smart aleck kid who heard, “Everything in Heaven and on Earth”. He’d immediately respond with, “What if I was UNDER the Earth?” In my mind the author was simply showing that no one would be left out.


In keeping with my idea that Hell is ethereal, I would say that Hell is a literal ethereal place that is in what we terrestrials would consider another dimension. This is no different than the Angels and Demons that we know are on the Earth, but remain out of sight to us. Does Hell take the same space in the universe as the Earth, only in a different dimension? Possibly, but not necessarily. It really doesn’t matter either way.


To boil it all down, Hell is a literal place of torment where the souls of the lost await final judgment.

You hold to the traditional view of Hell good and for once we can agree on something. Based on the replies in this thread it does not appear that there will be much disagreement on the doctrine of Hell on this board. Perhaps folks on christianforums.com would disagree with the traditional view of Hell, however for a variety of reasons I stay away from that site, as there you might have people who deny essential christian doctrine and claim to be Christians, etc..

Regarding your comments on the location of Hell perhaps its at the center of the earth, or perhaps in an entirely different location in the universe. But still even if it is at the earth's core, its in a different dimension, so even if man could go there he would not hear people screaming.

 

[JonC]

The traditional view advocates that Hell is a literal place and is forever. Those that argue against the traditional view argue that Hell is metaphorical, is temporary, or hold to some other view.

I believe that image we are given in Scripture of Hell is allegorical.

 

[evangelist6589]

I believe that image we are given in Scripture of Hell is allegorical.

What did you say? Explain this view.

 

[JonC]

What did you say? Explain this view.

You don't have to ask what I said, Evan. That's the good thing about posts. You can simply look at what I typed.

I believe that the picture of Hell we see in Scripture is symbolic.

This is one reason that I reject the idea that Jesus was separated from God in such a manner as the lost will be separated from God. On the Cross, Jesus was sustained by the Spirit. He had faith that the deliverance of the Father. He remained within the Father's love. Those in Hell are separated from the Spirit. They have no hope of deliverance. There is no Light at the end of the tunnel in Hell. It is complete hopelessness. They are outside of Christ.

Hell is a “place” (whatever that means, I do not know). It is the lake of fire (the specifics of which I cannot say). But that fire is allegorical. It is allegory for something eternally worse than fire. Scripture conjures up a terrifying image of men burning for all eternity, the worm never dying, gnashing of teeth, etc. in order to paint for us a horrifying symbol which will pale in comparison to the reality of Hell.

 

[JamesL]

So you do not believe that we are born and headed to Hell or did I misunderstand you?

Hmmm...

The word "and" is a curious insertion.

Nobody is born guilty of anyrhing. And nobody is born bearing any guilt associated with what Adam did or didn't do.

Scripture is clear for those who have eyes to see...We all, like sheep, have gone astray.

Can you go astray from that which you never belonged?

See Romans 1:18-25

God's anger is revealed against men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Keep that in mind, MEN who suppress the truth. Not babies, grown men.

Though they knew Him, they acknowledged Him no longer. Wait...these men knew Him?

Professing to be wise, they became fools. Wait...these men weren't born fools, but became that way?

Their foolish hearts were darkened. Wait...they weren't born darkened?

They worshipped the creature rather than the Creator. Wait...babies don't worship anything. These are MEN.

Men, who knew God. But they suppressed the truth. Thet went their own way. And the righteousness of God was revealed against them.

Who are these men? ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Well, unless you think this is talking about regenerated men who knew God then lost their salvation

 

[evangelist6589]

You don't have to ask what I said, Evan. That's the good thing about posts. You can simply look at what I typed.

I believe that the picture of Hell we see in Scripture is symbolic.

This is one reason that I reject the idea that Jesus was separated from God in such a manner as the lost will be separated from God. On the Cross, Jesus was sustained by the Spirit. He had faith that the deliverance of the Father. He remained within the Father's love. Those in Hell are separated from the Spirit. They have no hope of deliverance. There is no Light at the end of the tunnel in Hell. It is complete hopelessness. They are outside of Christ.

Hell is a “place” (whatever that means, I do not know). It is the lake of fire (the specifics of which I cannot say). But that fire is allegorical. It is allegory for something eternally worse than fire. Scripture conjures up a terrifying image of men burning for all eternity, the worm never dying, gnashing of teeth, etc. in order to paint for us a horrifying symbol which will pale in comparison to the reality of Hell.

You believe in a literal Hell and hold to the traditional view of Hell.

 

[evangelist6589]

Hmmm...

The word "and" is a curious insertion.

Nobody is born guilty of anyrhing. And nobody is born bearing any guilt associated with what Adam did or didn't do.

Scripture is clear for those who have eyes to see...We all, like sheep, have gone astray.

Can you go astray from that which you never belonged?

See Romans 1:18-25

God's anger is revealed against men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Keep that in mind, MEN who suppress the truth. Not babies, grown men.

Though they knew Him, they acknowledged Him no longer. Wait...these men knew Him?

Professing to be wise, they became fools. Wait...these men weren't born fools, but became that way?

Their foolish hearts were darkened. Wait...they weren't born darkened?

They worshipped the creature rather than the Creator. Wait...babies don't worship anything. These are MEN.

Men, who knew God. But they suppressed the truth. Thet went their own way. And the righteousness of God was revealed against them.

Who are these men? ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Well, unless you think this is talking about regenerated men who knew God then lost their salvation

So you are like Winman and deny original sin. The term for this belief system is called semi-Pelegainism. I think you need to read the scripture.

Ps 58:3 (NKJV)
The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

Next read Romans 5

 

[JamesL]

So you are like Winman and deny original sin. The term for this belief system is called semi-Pelegainism. I think you need to read the scripture.

Ps 58:3 (NKJV)
The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

Next read Romans 5

No, it's not SemiPelagian. You need to learn what you're trying to accuse people of.

But...so what if it were? Am I supposed to shrink back from the scriptures because some bunch of stuffy over-thinkers thought they needed to tell everybody else they're going to hell?

You go ahead and cling to your heroes, I'll cling to the cross.

 

[percho]

?s Traditional view of Hell.

I assume man never enters ταρταρόω tartaroō?

I assume γέεννα geenna is the lake of fire of Rev. and man can enter there?

And there is ᾅδης hadēs which man also can enter?

I assume man enters Hades and is then later transferred to Geenna, the lake of fire?

How does one enter Hades?
How does one enter Geenna?

 

[JamesL]

So you are like Winman and deny original sin. The term for this belief system is called semi-Pelegainism. I think you need to read the scripture.

Ps 58:3 (NKJV)
The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

Next read Romans 5

You would also do well to build your doctrine from doctrinal scriptures instead of letting people drag you through poetry first.

btw,
I notice you offered no comment about Ronans 1.

That makes it perfectly clear that you believe we can lose our salvation, since the ones who knew God can acknowledge Him no longer and become darkened and become the objects of his wrath.

So much for eternal security.
So much for Perseverance of the Saints.

 

[JonC]

You believe in a literal Hell and hold to the traditional view of Hell.

Yea...pretty much. That said, I've never been to Avernus, but I've been to Oklahoma. Biggrin

 

[tyndale1946]

Yea...pretty much. I have never actually been to Avernus, but given what I hear of the Sybil...well, I suppose we'll just have to rely on Virgil.

Coincidentally, I saw Styx this past weekend (they performed with the Nashville Symphony).

Well I might as well say it because if not me it will be someone else... Here goes and I've heard it said Jesus descended into hell... Did he or didn't he according to scripture?... If not where did this come from?... I don't believe he did what do you brethren think?... Where was he for 3 days?... His word to the thief is today you will be with me in paradise... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

Well I might as well say it because if not me it will be someone else... Here goes and I've heard it said Jesus descended into hell... Did he or didn't he according to scripture?... If not where did this come from?... I don't believe he did what do you brethren think?... Brother Glen

I think scripture teaches Hades - yes, Hell - no. Hell is the lake of fire (no one is currently "in Hell" as that follows the Judgment).

Unless you are reading the gospel according to Joyce Meyers. Then Jesus was in Hell for three days being tortured by demons. (not that the belief is unique to Meyers)

 

[tyndale1946]

I think scripture teaches Hades - yes, Hell - no. Hell is the lake of fire (no one is currently "in Hell" as that follows the Judgment).

Unless you are reading the gospel according to Joyce Meyers. Then Jesus was in Hell for three days being tortured by demons. (not that the belief is unique to Meyers)

What I have heard he was in hell preaching to the captives... Comments!... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

What I have heard he was in hell preaching to the captives... Comments!... Brother Glen

I've heard that also. Except that it is unbiblical (that Jesus went to Hell to preach to the dead and win souls), I don't know what to say. Those who died in the OT and we're saved were purchased with the same blood as us living today. They died either saved or lost (no sermon needed in Sheol). What did occur was a fulfillment of their faith in the coming Christ.

 

[TCassidy]

The traditional view advocates that Hell is a literal place and is forever. Those that argue against the traditional view argue that Hell is metaphorical, is temporary, or hold to some other view.

Sorry, but I believe the above is heresy. Hell cannot be corporeal nor is it eternal. God's word clearly tells us the dead in Hell are spirit beings as their bodies are still in their graves.

The bible also clearly says that Hell is NOT eternal but will be cast into the Lake of Fire at the consummation of the ages. Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[JamesL]

What I have heard he was in hell preaching to the captives... Comments!... Brother Glen

A lot has to be filled in with active imagination and a little speculation.

btw,
It is a view I hold to.

But the filling in also comes from understanding other portions of scripture.

Hades - the place of the dead (Sheol). Comprised of Abraham's bosom for the saints, and an unnamed place of torment for the wicked.

Why saints? Because they were not born again yet. The washing of regeneration, cleansing by the blood of Christ couldn't gappen until He died (Heb 9-10).

Christ died, proclaimed victory and set captives free. Only after that are we ever told that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[TCassidy]

Jesus was, for three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Or in the grave. He was in "hades" - the abode of the dead. This, of course, referring to His humanity. His human body. His Deity as in Heaven, with the thief from the other cross, and with the Father, and in the Heavenly City, and attending the Heavenly Mercy Seat (Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.).

The whole "Protestant Purgatory" nonsense is without biblical warrant. It is based on the Hyper Dispensationalism of Bullinger and others. The idea that nobody went to Heaven before the cross is silly. Check out Enoch And Elijah. And maybe read Psalms. Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever (Psalm 23:6). You guide me with Your counsel, and afterward You will take me into glory. Whom have I in heaven but You? And earth has nothing I desire besides You (Psalm 73:24,25).

The idea of a limbus patrum (limbo of the fathers) arose in Middle Ages. It was taught that heaven had been closed to humanity from the time of Adam's fall until the coming of Christ. Catholic heresy.

 

[TCassidy]

The washing of regeneration, cleansing by the blood of Christ couldn't gappen until He died (Heb 9-10).

God is not limited by Time. He is the Father of Eternity (Isaiah 9:6).

Christ's sacrifice on the cross is not limited by Time.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.