The Doctrine of Justification: The True Gospel

[ReformedBaptist]

In other discussions it seemed impossible for opponents of the biblcial doctrine of justification to stay on topic. Maybe this thread can? :laugh:

The Bible's teaching on the doctrine of Justification is directly and fatally opposed to the papacy's teaching, officially, on the subject. The two are saying complete opposites.

Even the recent Joint Declaration between the papacy and the World Lutheran Federation changes NOTHING to the papacy's perversion of the Bible's teaching on the subject.

So, let's start and see if it gets anywhere...

 

[Johnv]

In other discussions it seemed impossible for opponents of the biblcial doctrine of justification to stay on topic. Maybe this thread can?

Reformed Baptists generally believe noncalvinists are guilty of not adhering biblcial doctrine of justification, so this is more of a calvinism/arminianism issue than it is a catholic/protestant issue.

 

[webdog]

Reformed Baptists generally believe noncalvinists are guilty of not adhering biblcial doctrine of justification, so this is more of a calvinism/arminianism issue than it is a catholic/protestant issue.

I'm not sure about that. Both the cal and arm believe we are justified by grace through faith...we disagree on how we arrive there. That's different than works based salvation / grace based salvation.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Reformed Baptists generally believe noncalvinists are guilty of not adhering biblcial doctrine of justification, so this is more of a calvinism/arminianism issue than it is a catholic/protestant issue.

Why are you trying to create problems?

And your wrong. The Bible's doctrine of justiciation is opposed the the Roman church's teaching.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I'm not sure about that. Both the cal and arm believe we are justified by grace through faith...we disagree on how we arrive there. That's different than works based salvation / grace based salvation.

Webdog is exactly right. I have been around these boards alot, I disagree with webdog on some things, visa vera. But on how a person is just before an All Holy God, we do not disagree.

 

[Johnv]

I agree with you (me being an adherent of Reformed Theology). The hypercalvinist, though, frequently argues that arminians don't adhere to the biblcial doctrine of justification, since a person's actions dictate whether a person is saved or not. It's a common argument.

Why are you trying to create problems?

I'm engaging in discussion. If your intent was to simply engage in Catholic bashing, then I see how you wouldn't like it. Since you, not I, brought up Catholics, i seems that's exactly what you want to do.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I agree with you (me being an adherent of Reformed Theology). The hypercalvinist, though, frequently argues that arminians don't adhere to the biblcial doctrine of justification, since a person's actions dictate whether a person is saved or not. It's a common argument.

But the thread is about the biblical doctrine of justification opposed the papal teaching on it. Not hypercalvinism.

 

[lori4dogs]

There are several aspects to this question, 'Are Catholics Saved? The most important is to realize that the Catholic Church does not teach that we earn our salvation by our own efforts, although it does teach that we have to work as a result of our salvation. The same apostle who wrote Galatians also wrote Philippians, wherein Paul says, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12).

 

[Johnv]

But the thread is about the biblical doctrine of justification opposed the papal teaching on it. Not hypercalvinism.

On other thread, Catholics were attempting to explain their position. Are you willing to let them do that here? Or are you simply going to tell them they don't know their church's teaching?

 

[webdog]

On other thread, Catholics were attempting to explain their position. Are you willing to let them do that here? Or are you simply going to tell them they don't know their church's teaching?

I would say more than half don't know their church's teaching...and in that half you will find those who are truly justified..

 

[webdog]

There are several aspects to this question, 'Are Catholics Saved? The most important is to realize that the Catholic Church does not teach that we earn our salvation by our own efforts, although it does teach that we have to work as a result of our salvation. The same apostle who wrote Galatians also wrote Philippians, wherein Paul says, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12).

You are one of those who don't either know or believe your churches doctrine

 

[Johnv]

There are several aspects to this question, 'Are Catholics Saved? The most important is to realize that the Catholic Church does not teach that we earn our salvation by our own efforts, although it does teach that we have to work as a result of our salvation.

I guarantee you, you will be accused on not knowing your own church's teachings. I guess a Baptists with anticatholic propensities are better equipped to know what the Catholic Church teaches than a practicing Catholic.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I'm engaging in discussion. If your intent was to simply engage in Catholic bashing, then I see how you wouldn't like it. Since you, not I, brought up Catholics, i seems that's exactly what you want to do.

I have no idea what catholic bashing is. If it means to disagree with the papacy and believe their doctrines are heretical, and that the papacy itself is Antichrist, then I guess I am a basher.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

There are several aspects to this question, 'Are Catholics Saved? The most important is to realize that the Catholic Church does not teach that we earn our salvation by our own efforts, although it does teach that we have to work as a result of our salvation. The same apostle who wrote Galatians also wrote Philippians, wherein Paul says, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12).

Actually, the topic of this thread isn't whether or not Roman Catholics are saved. The subject is the doctrine of Justification, please try to comment upon that subject.

Thanks.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I guarantee you, you will be accused on not knowing your own church's teachings. I guess a Baptists with anticatholic propensities are better equipped to know what the Catholic Church teaches than a practicing Catholic.

Now can you get back on topic? Or are you here, as I asked before, just to cause problems and create animosities?

 

[Darron Steele]

I have no idea what catholic bashing is. ...

Let me help you: it is when a person says bad things about Catholics mainly or just for fun.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Let me help you: it is when a person says bad things about Catholics mainly or just for fun.

Too vaugue. What do you mean bad things? Like, the papacy is that Man of Sin, Antichrist? Or, the papacy is a heretical institution? Or, papal doctrines are in error?

 

[webdog]

I guarantee you, you will be accused on not knowing your own church's teachings. I guess a Baptists with anticatholic propensities are better equipped to know what the Catholic Church teaches than a practicing Catholic.

You are right, I was typing just that as you typed this :laugh:

I'm not "anticatholic" in any stretch...my wife's entire family is in their grip at the moment.
I will also say a baptist indwelt with the Holy Spirit is just as qualified, if not more in understanding the catechism "rule book" of sorts. My wife (a converted catholic herself) even concedes to this brainwashing having a grip on her understanding of justification and no need to understand the Bible as that is what the church is for (a HIGHLY popular view amongst RCC's). That is why I stated the majority of those who are true believers either don't understand the churches teaching or go against it. It's quite cut and dried in the catechism what the church believes.

 

[Darron Steele]

I have no idea what catholic bashing is.

Let me help you: it is when a person says bad things about Catholics mainly or just for fun.

Too vaugue. What do you mean bad things? Like, the papacy is that Man of Sin, Antichrist? Or, the papacy is a heretical institution? Or, papal doctrines are in error?

My description is not too vague.

The statement "the papacy is that Man of Sin, Antichrist" is criticism only of one Catholic -- the pope. The statement "the papacy is a heretical institution" is a criticism of a thing: an institution. The statement "papal doctrines are in error" is a statement about Catholic precepts.

None of these statements qualify as Catholic bashing. My definition breakdown:
a) "says bad things about Catholics" --Catholics being people, plural,
b) "mainly or just for fun" -- the primary or sole motive is enjoyment.

I hope that helps.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

My description is not too vague.

The statement "the papacy is that Man of Sin, Antichrist" is criticism only of one Catholic -- the pope. The statement "the papacy is a heretical institution" is a criticism of a thing: an institution. The statement "papal doctrines are in error" is a statement about Catholic precepts.

None of these statements qualify as Catholic bashing. My definition breakdown:
a) "says bad things about Catholics" --Catholics being people, plural,
b) "mainly or just for fun" -- the primary or sole motive is enjoyment.

I hope that helps.

It does. It is actually against the rules to make personal attacks on these boards.

But we'll see how long your definition holds water when what you actually say isn't "catholic bashing" happens, how many RCs come out and say people are bashing them. lol