The Doctrine of Original Sin

[Brother Bob]

There is an entire thread on this topic elsewhere and, as I recall, you started the thread. Why start that conversation again here?

This goes to the very core of this thread. Why not answer it?

BBob,

 

[jdlongmire]

So, not all infants are elected. Only those who die in infancy. Is that correct?

I'd still like to see some scripture that says infants have saving faith.

Are you requiring a literal statement? I just gave you the rationale - interact with it.

For substantiation, see Bro Bob's original quote from Job (which fits within the orthodox doctrine of infant salvation), look at Deuteronomy 1:39, read about David's son that was taken, and about Abijah, the son of Jeroboam.

 

[jdlongmire]

RB - sorry for participating in the hijack of your thread. I am out - anyone wishing to continue the discussion about infant salvation are welcome to post here or start a new thread.

 

[Amy.G]

There is an entire thread on this topic elsewhere and, as I recall, you started the thread. Why start that conversation again here?

Because it is relevant to this discussion and in the thread that I started, not one Calvinist made a post in it. Most of the posts were Bro. Bob, Skypair, you and myself.

I think the verse is important to the discussion of original sin and the belief that we are born spiritually dead.

 

[Amy.G]

Are you requiring a literal statement? I just gave you the rationale - interact with it.

For substantiation, see Bro Bob's original quote from Job (which fits within the orthodox doctrine of infant salvation), look at Deuteronomy 1:39, read about David's son that was taken, and about Abijah, the son of Jeroboam.

I have read all of those verses and not one says that infants have faith.

 

[TCGreek]

Spiritual..............

BBob, James defines death as a separation (Jas 2:26).

1. Physical death is when the spirit separates from the body.

2. Spiritual death is when the soul of a person is separated from God because of sin.

 

[jdlongmire]

I have read all of those verses and not one says that infants have faith.

God gives saving faith to His elect whom He loves.

Jesus loves infants in infancy ("of such are the kingdom of Heaven").

Infants, dying in infancy, are elect and given saving faith.

I have given Scriptural support for all these statements. Please deconstruct or offer a rebuttal edit here.

 

[Brother Bob]

BBob, James defines death as a separation (Jas 2:26).

1. Physical death is when the spirit separates from the body.

2. Spiritual death is when the soul of a person is separated from God because of sin.

I forget the question, but I believe I quoted when they come to know God and Glorify Him not. Which is sin.

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

I forget the question, but I believe I quoted when they come to know God and Glorify Him not. Which is sin.

BBob,

I asked for a definition of death not sin.

But you're correct about what sin is.

 

[Brother Bob]

God gives saving faith to His elect whom He loves.

Jesus loves infants in infancy ("of such are the kingdom of Heaven").

Infants, dying in infancy, are elect and given saving faith.

I have given Scriptural support for all these statements. Please deconstruct or offer a rebuttal edit here.

I am sorry, but I have not seen a scripture where God gives infants "faith", posted by no one.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

I asked for a definition of death not sin.

But you're correct about what sin is.

Which brings a spiritual death, right?

BBob,

 

[jdlongmire]

I am sorry, but I have not seen a scripture where God gives infants "faith", posted by no one.

BBob,

Again, I have given Scriptural support for all these statements. Please deconstruct or offer a rebuttal here

 

[Amy.G]

God gives saving faith to His elect whom He loves.

Jesus loves infants in infancy ("of such are the kingdom of Heaven").

Infants, dying in infancy, are elect and given saving faith.

I have given Scriptural support for all these statements. Please deconstruct or offer a rebuttal edit here.

Please repost your scripture. I cannot find it.

 

[TCGreek]

Which brings a spiritual death, right?

BBob,

Not necessarily! If a person is already spiritually separated from God, that person would only be sinning more.

How much more can a person be separated from God in this life?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I would like to ask those who believe we are born spiritually dead, what does this verse mean to you?


Rom 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

I hope we are defining spiritual death as separation from God. That being the case, here is how I understand this verse. Paul is speaking of himself here. He says he was alive without the law once. Of what is he speaking? "For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death." verse 5

His being alive was his living in the flesh without the Law of God. Now Paul was a Pharisee. How can this man say he was without the Law? He was without the true sense of it, or as Gill puts it, the spirituality of it. It was Christ Jesus that came and explained the true meaning of the Law. Is this not what the sermon on the mount shows us? "You have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery, but I say to you.."

When a person sees himself as righteous apart from Christ, that is, by the Law or his conscience, sin is dead to him. He does not see himself as a sinner. But when the commandment comes into our hearts and conscience, sin is shown to be sin and proves to us we are dead men. The Law did not bring the death, but showed it.

"Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure." Rom 7:13, ESV

There are some verses similiar to this. Here:

Romans 6
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Thinking on my own experience, and conversion, and life in Christ afterwards, I say it this way: There was a time in my life when I was alive to sin and dead to God. When the commandement came, my sin appeared exceedingly sinful. After I was converted (that is, born again) I became dead to sin but alive to God. I was indeed free from righteousness, but now I am the slave of it.

 

[jdlongmire]

Originally Posted by Amy.G
I would like to ask those who believe we are born spiritually dead, what does this verse mean to you?


Rom 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

I responded here and included some of John Calvin's commentaries.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I responded here and included some of John Calvin's commentaries.

Calvin is brilliant on this passage. I am going to have to start reading his commentaries more. I am greatful that my seminary work will have me in some of his commentary by necessity--namely the Institutes, which I have but have not read.

 

[jdlongmire]

Calvin is brilliant on this passage. I am going to have to start reading his commentaries more. I am greatful that my seminary work will have me in some of his commentary by necessity--namely the Institutes, which I have but have not read.

I tell you what - I love discussion boards because they make me dig into these resources and it makes me appreciate what a fine exegete the good Dr was!

I have "read over" the Institutes and need to pull them up again - so much to read, so little time!

I hope you get exposed to Van Til, Bahnsen and Frame in your studies - really excellent thinkers.

 

[Rippon]

I tell you what - I love discussion boards because they make me dig into these resources and it makes me appreciate what a fine exegete the good Dr was!

I have "read over" the Institutes and need to pull them up again - so much to read, so little time!

I hope you get exposed to Van Til, Bahnsen and Frame in your studies - really excellent thinkers.

Don't neglect Calvin's commentaries and sermons. They are top-notch -- so much weighty yet digestible stuff.Even Calvin's letters contain choice material.I really think Matthew Henry lags behind Calvin.

I'm not much of a Van Til fan. I much prefer Gordon H. Clark. Read Herman Hoeksema and G.H.Kersten also.

 

[Brother Bob]

Not necessarily! If a person is already spiritually separated from God, that person would only be sinning more.

How much more can a person be separated from God in this life?

So, the soul that sinneth shall die, is not true???

BBob,