The Doctrine of Original Sin

[skypair]

jdlongmire,

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
It is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature..., and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid. Thus, Adam's sin was "to set a bad example" for his progeny, but his actions did not have the other consequences imputed to Original Sin.

If you want to say that "sin tainted human nature," it did so through the FLESH only and that is NOT heretical. As many mainline pastors will tell (incluing Dr Rogers), "sin tainted human nature" is merely "blood poisoning." That is, all of the fleshly seed of Adam will die physically.

As far as "capable of choosing good or evil without divine aid" is concerned -- heretical! God draws EVERYONE! There is NO instance of ANYONE choosing good without divine revelation of good.

Does that help?

skypair

 

[Amy.G]

no - because without Christ all Men are condemned under the curse of Adam and condemned for their own sin. That is what Scripture teaches.

God's initial act of grace was to not completely destroy mankind when Adam sinned - He only delayed judgment for the sake of the elect and the glory of Christ.

Ok. So this is the "double" condemnation that you were talking about earlier. If we are already condemned in Adam, then a second condemnation is pretty pointless.

I have never heard of double condemnation before.


Actually, we are condemned for our sins only. "The soul that sins shall die". No one is held accountable for another's sins.


Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

 

[Amy.G]

jdlongmire,

If you want to say that "sin tainted human nature," it did so through the FLESH only and that is NOT heretical. As many mainline pastors will tell (incluing Dr Rogers), "sin tainted human nature" is merely "blood poisoning." That is, all of the fleshly seed of Adam will die physically.

As far as "capable of choosing good or evil without divine aid" is concerned -- heretical! God draws EVERYONE! There is NO instance of ANYONE choosing good without divine revelation of good.

Does that help?

skypair

I wanted to ask you, because you know Dr. Roger's teachings (and I loved his teachings as well), did he believe in original sin? It sounds as though he believed the same as me, that we die spiritually when we sin. We are not born spiritually dead. (IMO)

 

[Brother Bob]

Infants, passing from infancy, are responsible for original sin and their own sin.

Infants, dying in infancy, are only responsible for original sin, and since they have none of their own sin and cannot repent and be forgiven are saved by the grace Christ revealed that He has for infants in infancy.

It would help me a lot, if you give scripture where God saved infants by Grace, from the original sin of Adam?

You are saying if I understand you right, that if an infant dies while in infancy, that Christ blood will cover its sin of original sin, but it has none of its own, therefore is saved.

How does this differ from what I posted that the physical death, in most cases is in the future of a person, and so is the spiritual death, in the future of a person, to when he comes to the age of accountability?

If the infants live long enough to leave infancy, Christs blood will not cover that original sin anymore, but the individual becomes responsible for the orginal sin, and his own sins, and needs the blood of Christ to cover the original sin again, plus the sins of the individual that he committed. Do I have it right? Your orginal sin, has to be covered by the blood of Christ two times, is you live beyond infancy.

If I had scripture for that, then I would have something to hang my hat on.

Infants concieved in sin.
Infants come forth lying from the womb.
Infants are born in sin.
Infants have both the appointment of death and are born with a spiritual death.
Infants die a spiritual death, even though they are already dead spiritual.
Infants when they leave infancy, they have both the original sin of Adam, even though the child does not carry the sins of the father, they also have a spiritual death because of their own sins.

Rom 14:12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

BBob,

 

[Jarthur001]

jdlongmire,

If you want to say that "sin tainted human nature," it did so through the FLESH only and that is NOT heretical. As many mainline pastors will tell (incluing Dr Rogers), "sin tainted human nature" is merely "blood poisoning." That is, all of the fleshly seed of Adam will die physically.

As far as "capable of choosing good or evil without divine aid" is concerned -- heretical! God draws EVERYONE! There is NO instance of ANYONE choosing good without divine revelation of good.

Does that help?

skypair

Dr who???

 

[skypair]

The Bible says that we are "objects of wrath by nature" and that we're responsible for our own sins, and we have all sinned in Adam (Eph 2:3; Rom 5:12).

"In Adam" = by doing as Adam did - by SINNING!

"In Christ" = believing on Christ Who did NOT sin, Who paid for OUR sin, Who made us all sinless in Him.

skypair

 

[skypair]

1st...I think I would find a better source then wikipedia..

You forget it was a CALVINIST who first offered wikopedia's definition. We don't care what wikopedia says, James.

sky

 

[skypair]

Infants, passing from infancy, are responsible for original sin and their own sin.

Infants, dying in infancy, are only responsible for original sin, and since they have none of their own sin and cannot repent and be forgiven are saved by the grace Christ revealed that He has for infants in infancy.

Scripture please, Mr "I find all infants 'elect.'" :laugh:

Good grief, Charlie Brown! Does this brown stuff get any deeper??? :laugh:

skypair

 

[skypair]

I wanted to ask you, because you know Dr. Roger's teachings (and I loved his teachings as well), did he believe in original sin? It sounds as though he believed the same as me, that we die spiritually when we sin. We are not born spiritually dead. (IMO)

You are correct. Dr Rogers believed that "original sin" was just that -- original. He believed that David went to HEAVEN to see the son for whom he fasted unsuccessfully. The things God creates that are "inanimate" are rocks, water, etc.

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

I wanted to ask you, because you know Dr. Roger's teachings (and I loved his teachings as well), did he believe in original sin? It sounds as though he believed the same as me, that we die spiritually when we sin. We are not born spiritually dead. (IMO)

this is what I want to know.

Name me one theologian you hold in high regard before 1920 that did not believe in original sin as it was held by Protestant Reformers such as Martin Luther and Lutheranism and John Calvin and the Baptist and Presbyterian.

And you will find all the Baptist confessions, American Baptist, Baptist General Conference, General Association of General Baptist, General Association of Regular Baptist, National Baptist Convention of America, National Primitive Baptist, New Testament Associations of Independent Baptist, North American Baptist, Primitive Baptist (1827), Reformed Baptist, Southern Baptist, Baptist Bible Fellowship, Baptist Missionary Association, Conservative Baptist Association and others believe in original sin where man is guilty because of Adam.

Also the Brethren Churches, Congregationals, Anglican, Christian Missionary Alliance, Wesleyan Church, Churches of Christ in Christian Union, The Mennonite's, the Amish, and many many others, all believe in original sin.

Even the Free Will Baptist says..
Adam and Eve were created in a state of innocence, but they fell into a state of sin and condemnations. All humans since that time have inherited a fallen nature and are thereby guilty before God.
page 52 Christian Denominations by Ron Rhodes

And John Wesley a Methodist, all of Eastern Orthodoxy, Adventist churches, Advent reformed churches, Oriental Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism, all believe in original sin.


If you check history "The Age of Accountability" dogma comes from the Church of Christ. Some how it found its way into the Baptist churches.

THIS ADDED LATER
I feel this is right, however I could be wrong on this one. The Church of Christ is who made it popular this time around anyway. Maybe Rippon knows more on this, being a student of history as he is. I know how it got in the Baptist Churches. It came from Princeton who picked up the idea from the Church of Christ.

Sad that we see it on the BB.

 

[Amy.G]

James, I don't know of any theologians before 1920. I don't study writings of any theologians.

I don't know of anyone other than the Catholics that believe that we are born condemned, which is why they had to invent baptismal regeneration. Baptists that I know believe in the age of accountability. We are born with a sin nature, but not guilty of Adam's sin. We are accountable to God for our personal sins only.

If infants are born already condemned, then they will go to hell unless they put their faith in Christ, which they are unable to do. You have infants receiving a different salvation than the rest of humanity. I belielve that is wrong. We are told of only one way to be saved, by grace through faith.
Infants have a sin nature, but are innocent of personal sin. Therefore, they go to be with the Lord if they die. Simple as that.
The soul that sins shall die. I sin, I die. You sin, you die. You are not punished for my sins and I am not punished for yours. We are not punished for Adam's sin (spiritually). He was accountable to God for his own sin. We do however suffer the consequences of Adam's sin, physical death, a fallen world and a sinful nature.
If I sin, it has nothing to do with Adam, or else I could blame him for my sin. God holds ME accountable and me ONLY.

 

[Jarthur001]

James, I don't know of any theologians before 1920. I don't study writings of any theologians.

I don't know of anyone other than the Catholics that believe that we are born condemned, which is why they had to invent baptismal regeneration. Baptists that I know believe in the age of accountability. We are born with a sin nature, but not guilty of Adam's sin. We are accountable to God for our personal sins only.

If infants are born already condemned, then they will go to hell unless they put their faith in Christ, which they are unable to do. You have infants receiving a different salvation than the rest of humanity. I belielve that is wrong. We are told of only one way to be saved, by grace through faith.
Infants have a sin nature, but are innocent of personal sin. Therefore, they go to be with the Lord if they die. Simple as that.
The soul that sins shall die. I sin, I die. You sin, you die. You are not punished for my sins and I am not punished for yours. We are not punished for Adam's sin (spiritually). He was accountable to God for his own sin. We do however suffer the consequences of Adam's sin, physical death, a fallen world and a sinful nature.
If I sin, it has nothing to do with Adam, or else I could blame him for my sin. God holds ME accountable and me ONLY.

A few more then RCC Amy. In fact there is only a small handfull that does not.

You may want Christian Denominations by Ron Rhodes.

Rhodes is a non Calvinist that holds a Th.m and Th.D from Dallas Theological Seminary. He wrote, "find it fast in the Bible, The complete Book of Bible Answers and Why do bad things happen if God is Good?.
This one book is a list all of the Denominations when they were founded by whom and how many churches are in each group. And there are statements of faith for each group. I only posted a few from the book.

OS is and always has been main stream.

 

[Jarthur001]

.
The soul that sins shall die. I sin, I die. You sin, you die.

This verse has been misused for months on this board.

If you read the text it is clear what it means. Physical Death

You are not punished for my sins and I am not punished for yours. We are not punished for Adam's sin (spiritually).

Romans 5 says you are guilty because you are from Adam. Nothing more to be said.

 

[Amy.G]

This verse has been misused for months on this board.

If you read the text it is clear what it means. Physical Death

The principle is the same. You are only held accountable for your own sins, not the sins of someone else.

Romans 5 says you are guilty because you are from Adam. Nothing more to be said.

This is also talking about physical death, which as I said, all suffer death (physical) because of Adam's sin.

 

[Jarthur001]

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

This verse found in Romans 5 can not be over come. The point is ONE man.

One man (adam) death rules.

It tells us in verses above that death is sin.

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Back to verse 17
by One (Christ) life comes.

If death comes by many...as in death comes when we sin....each of us...you, me, joe and all people .....the power of the reason Paul is giving is lost.

In one death rules.
one life comes

This is the same idea as found in 1 Corinthians 15:22

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive

.

In one we are dead.
In one we have been made alive.

 

[Amy.G]

This verse found in Romans 5 can not be over come. The point is ONE man.

One man (adam) death rules.

It tells us about that death is sin.


Back to verse 17
by One (Christ) life comes.

If death comes by many...as in death comes when we sin....each of us...you, me, joe and all people .....the power of the reason Paul is giving is lost.

In one death rules.
one life comes

This is the same idea as found in 1 Corinthians 15:22

.

In one we are dead.
In one we have been made alive.

Yes. Physical death comes on ALL men by Adam. But we die spiritually the same way that Adam did, by disobeying God, with knowledge. All are responsible for their own sins because God has written His laws on our hearts. This is called the conscience.
Con (with) science (knowledge).

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes. Physical death comes on ALL men by Adam. But we die spiritually the same way that Adam did, by disobeying God, with knowledge. All are responsible for their own sins because God has written His laws on our hearts. This is called the conscience.
Con (with) science (knowledge).

again you must remember that verse 12 tells us what death is meant.

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It make no sense to say they are sinners because they someday will die.

Hodges

VERSE 12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, etc. The force of dia touto, wherefore, has already been pointed out, when speaking of the connection of this passage with the preceding: 'It follows, from what has been said of the method of justification that as by one man all became sinners so by one are all constituted righteous.' This passage, therefore, is the summation of all that has gone before As (wsper), obviously indicates a comparison or parallel. There is however no corresponding clause beginning with so, to complete the sentence. Examples of similar incomplete comparisons may be found in Matthew 25:14, with wsper, and in 1 Timothy 1:3, with kaqwV. It is however so obvious that the illustration begun in this verse is resumed, and fully stated in vers. 18, 19, that the vast majority of commentators agree that we must seek in those verses the clause which answers to this verse. The other explanations are unnecessary or unsatisfactory.

 

[jdlongmire]

Yes. Physical death comes on ALL men by Adam. But we die spiritually the same way that Adam did, by disobeying God, with knowledge. All are responsible for their own sins because God has written His laws on our hearts. This is called the conscience.
Con (with) science (knowledge).

wow - I'd say you are well convinced of what you are saying and if you are comfortable being aligned with heresy, you have at least been been well warned.

You do understand that the double condemnation of original sin and willful sin insures no one can boast that they have followed God's Law and are thus innocent before Him?

Finally:

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Tell me this - if we are made spiritually alive through Christ, from what state did we change?

 

[Amy.G]

wow - I'd say you are well convinced of what you are saying and if you are comfortable being aligned with heresy, you have at least been been well warned.

You do understand that the double condemnation of original sin and willful sin insures no one can boast that they have followed God's Law and are thus innocent before Him?

I am not a heretic. I wish you would stop with the name calling. I could just as easily call you a heretic because you believe God leaves some in their sin (which you say they can't help because they inherited it from Adam) with no chance of salvation ending in eternal death, just because I don't agree with you. Some people call Calvinism heresy. But I will not do that. I am usually a pretty nice person on the BB, but you are about to push me too far and I will become un-nice.

No one can boast, period. We all sin. We are not saved by our good works, so we have nothing to boast about. We can only boast "in Christ".

Finally:

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Tell me this - if we are made spiritually alive through Christ, from what state did we change?

We changed from being spiritually dead into new creatures created in Christ Jesus who are alive in spirit.

We became dead when we sinned (with knowledge) against God. Just as Paul says:

Rom 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.


Now I know that you interpret that verse differently, but that is how I see it.


Consider what Jesus said.

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven."


If we are born spiritually dead, why did Jesus say "such is the kingdom of heaven"? Did He mean that the kingdom of heaven is filled with spiritually dead children?
He meant we must be innocent as children to see the kingdom of heaven. We become innocent by trusting in Christ to save us and when we do, we are declared "not guilty", or innocent as children. How much clearer can it be?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

James, I don't know of any theologians before 1920. I don't study writings of any theologians.

I don't know of anyone other than the Catholics that believe that we are born condemned, which is why they had to invent baptismal regeneration. Baptists that I know believe in the age of accountability. We are born with a sin nature, but not guilty of Adam's sin. We are accountable to God for our personal sins only.

If infants are born already condemned, then they will go to hell unless they put their faith in Christ, which they are unable to do. You have infants receiving a different salvation than the rest of humanity. I belielve that is wrong. We are told of only one way to be saved, by grace through faith.
Infants have a sin nature, but are innocent of personal sin. Therefore, they go to be with the Lord if they die. Simple as that.
The soul that sins shall die. I sin, I die. You sin, you die. You are not punished for my sins and I am not punished for yours. We are not punished for Adam's sin (spiritually). He was accountable to God for his own sin. We do however suffer the consequences of Adam's sin, physical death, a fallen world and a sinful nature.
If I sin, it has nothing to do with Adam, or else I could blame him for my sin. God holds ME accountable and me ONLY.

Amy,

That you have moved away from the sound doctrines of Scripture, namely those that are called Calvinism, is regrettable. But you seemingly boast of your lack of knowledge in historical theology before 1920. And that you would not study the writings of any theologians seems to boast of an ignorance, which doesn't bear the mark of wisdom.

This reminds me of a pastor who once said to me that I read too many commentaries. I will grant that there is a danger of laziness there if a man or woman not also be a student of Scripture. But he was faulting me for reading commentaries frequently and exhorted me to read the Scriptures only. I told the dear pastor that if I took his advice, would be it ok if I left off from listening to his commentary each Sunday as well?

We must be careful about an attitude that pretends to be pious but is in fact a root of pride. In addressing preachers, Spurgeon once said:

In order to be able to expound the Scriptures, and as an aid to your pulpit studies, you will need to be familiar with the commentators: a glorious army, let me tell you, whose acquaintance will be your delight and profit. Of course, you are not such wiseacres as to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have laboured before you in the field of exposition. If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility. It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others.

Also, your argument here in the main seems to be a moral one which you are hanging on one verse. Let me caution you not to be so quick to reject the imputation of Adam's sin when you are so ready to recieve the imputation of Christ's righteousness, lest you appear to be playing the hypocrit.

Blessings,
RB