The Doctrine of Original Sin

[Amy.G]

Amy,

That you have moved away from the sound doctrines of Scripture, namely those that are called Calvinism, is regrettable. But you seemingly boast of your lack of knowledge in historical theology before 1920. And that you would not study the writings of any theologians seems to boast of an ignorance, which doesn't bear the mark of wisdom.

This reminds me of a pastor who once said to me that I read too many commentaries. I will grant that there is a danger of laziness there if a man or woman not also be a student of Scripture. But he was faulting me for reading commentaries frequently and exhorted me to read the Scriptures only. I told the dear pastor that if I took his advice, would be it ok if I left off from listening to his commentary each Sunday as well?

We must be careful about an attitude that pretends to be pious but is in fact a root of pride. In addressing preachers, Spurgeon once said:



Also, your argument here in the main seems to be a moral one which you are hanging on one verse. Let me caution you not to be so quick to reject the imputation of Adam's sin when you are so ready to recieve the imputation of Christ's righteousness, lest you appear to be playing the hypocrit.

Blessings,
RB

Wow RB. I thought we were friends. :tear:

I am not being prideful or pious. I didn't say that I refuse to read theological writings, just that I don't. I do have commentaries that I consult, but there are only so many hours in a day and I prefer to study scripture. I never made any remarks about your choice to study various theologians because that is your choice. It is my choice to not study them. I think they call it "soul liberty".

I have already condemned myself because I'm a sinner. What purpose does it serve to impute Adam's sin to me? I received the righteousness of Christ through faith for the remission on MY sins, which were ample reason to be condemned to hell. When I accepted God's call to salvation, I didn't have a clue about Adam's imputed sin. In fact I didn't learn about it until years later. I fell into God's arms because of MY sin.

 

[Rippon]

I have already condemned myself because I'm a sinner. What purpose does it serve to impute Adam's sin to me?

Rip : Apparently it was God's purpose for Paul to include Romans 5:12-19 and 1 Corinthians 15:22 in Holy Writ."Yes,Adam's one sin brings condemnation for everyone..." ( Ro.5:18a)


I received the righteousness of Christ through faith for the remission on MY sins, which were ample reason to be condemned to hell. When I accepted God's call to salvation, I didn't have a clue about Adam's imputed sin. In fact I didn't learn about it until years later. I fell into God's arms because of MY sin.

You didn't learn about it until years later? So despite your study of Scripture, you missed those parts?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Wow RB. I thought we were friends. :tear:

I am not being prideful or pious. I didn't say that I refuse to read theological writings, just that I don't. I do have commentaries that I consult, but there are only so many hours in a day and I prefer to study scripture. I never made any remarks about your choice to study various theologians because that is your choice. It is my choice to not study them. I think they call it "soul liberty".

I have already condemned myself because I'm a sinner. What purpose does it serve to impute Adam's sin to me? I received the righteousness of Christ through faith for the remission on MY sins, which were ample reason to be condemned to hell. When I accepted God's call to salvation, I didn't have a clue about Adam's imputed sin. In fact I didn't learn about it until years later. I fell into God's arms because of MY sin.

Hey amy, sounds like my post came accross as too strong. Sorry about that. I didn't mean it to be an accusation. I read your words as having the possibility of what I discussed, and if so, then pride was at the root. I am glad to hear of your humility. Then let me encourage you that with your Scriptural studies you look into some theological works as well. God has given to His people many great teachers from which Christians can be aided in their walk in Him, and their knowledge in Him.

To your questions, I ask what purpose does it serve to impute Christ's righteousness to you? Why is Jesus the Second Adam? Why is it that you can have Christ's righteousness imputed to you? How is it that Christ can represent you?

And to your personal testimony, let me mirror it, but in my words:

Praise be to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. He chose me in Him before the foundation of the world. He has blessed me exceedingly. He pre-determined me to adoption through Jesus Christ according to His will. He made me accepted in the Beloved. In Christ Jesus I have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of my sins, accoding to His grace. He has made known to me His will, that He is gathering together in one all things in Christ. In Christ I have obtained an inheritance because I was predestinated accoding to His purpose: Who works all things after the counsel of His will---that I should be to the praise of His glory, who also has trusted in Him, after I heard the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, in whom after I believed, I was sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[Amy.G]

You didn't learn about it until years later? So despite your study of Scripture, you missed those parts?

I stayed a baby Christian for a long time because of lack of study. I was milk fed for the first few years. That was my fault. But God has forgiven me and blessed my life greatly since.

 

[Amy.G]

Hey amy, sounds like my post came accross as too strong. Sorry about that. I didn't mean it to be an accusation. I read your words as having the possibility of what I discussed, and if so, then pride was at the root. I am glad to hear of your humility. Then let me encourage you that with your Scriptural studies you look into some theological works as well. God has given to His people many great teachers from which Christians can be aided in their walk in Him, and their knowledge in Him.

To your questions, I ask what purpose does it serve to impute Christ's righteousness to you? Why is Jesus the Second Adam? Why is it that you can have Christ's righteousness imputed to you? How is it that Christ can represent you?

And to your personal testimony, let me mirror it, but in my words:

Praise be to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. He chose me in Him before the foundation of the world. He has blessed me exceedingly. He pre-determined me to adoption through Jesus Christ according to His will. He made me accepted in the Beloved. In Christ Jesus I have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of my sins, accoding to His grace. He has made known to me His will, that He is gathering together in one all things in Christ. In Christ I have obtained an inheritance because I was predestinated accoding to His purpose: Who works all things after the counsel of His will---that I should be to the praise of His glory, who also has trusted in Him, after I heard the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, in whom after I believed, I was sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Soli Deo Gloria!

Thank you RB. :godisgood:

 

[Outsider]

I see Romans 5:12 is discussed a lot.

:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I do feel that this is speaking of a physical death, but lets look at the next two verses.

:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

I have a couple of questions that I would like some feed back on:

1. What is the penalty for original sin?
2. Is this saying that there were some that did not have original sin, but death reigned over them anyway?

I think this answers the penalty for original sin. Not spiritual death but a physical death. In other words, when we were born we have original sin and are doomed for a physical death, but that doesn't mean we are spiritually dead.

God bless and many blessings!!!!

 

[Rippon]

I think this answers the penalty for original sin. Not spiritual death but a physical death. In other words, when we were born we have original sin and are doomed for a physical death, but that doesn't mean we are spiritually dead.

We are born at enmity with God -- we are under His wrath. We are dead in trespasses and sins. Yes, spiritually dead.But Christ will raise up some of His pleasing -- He will make them spiritually alive by His saving grace.

 

[Brother Bob]

This verse has been misused for months on this board.

If you read the text it is clear what it means. Physical Death

I thought physical death is an appointment, because of Adam's sin??




Romans 5 says you are guilty because you are from Adam. Nothing more to be said.

I believe in original sin, which brings the physical death in our lives. (Which by the way is an appointment to all men). When we become of an age of accountability, we will become dead spiritual, because "we will sin", no ifs or buts about it. All because of the original sin. I do not believe the soul is dead until WE sin, but because of Adam's orginal sin, the time will come in our lives, that we WILL sin, but not at birth or before.

Both sides struggle with scripture that will put the other one away, but we have to add some of our own personal thought of the meaning of scripture to do so. Just because the Articles of Faith of so many different faiths, say they believe in Original Sin, does not mean, they believe it as we do. Some do, some don't. I believe in Original sin, Our Association believes in Original Sin, but we believe babies go to heaven, if they die before the age of accountability.

If Original sin, brought physical death, but in most cases in the future. I see not problem whatsoever that Original sin, brought spiritual death, but at the age of accountability. When the Law enters a person, you don't then go out in sin. When the Law enters a person, you then become accountable and what you have already committed, becomes sin. Its impossible to get around becoming a sinner, when you reach the age of accountability. What if an infant steals. There is no Law, so there is no sin. When that infant reaches the age of accountability, the Law enters and that person, now becomes accountable for all they have done and what was not sin, becomes sin, making it impossible to reach a age when the Law enters and not become a sinner. So, the Spiritual death is because of your own sins, but only when the Law enters you and makes what was not sin, then become sin.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

This verse has been misused for months on this board.

If you read the text it is clear what it means. Physical Death

Baloney! First off -- to say that the soul, "it" dies physically is an ludicrous!

The same verse says, "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezek 18:20 SAME VERSE. Sin guiilt is NOT passed through the seed.

Romans 5 says you are guilty because you are from Adam. Nothing more to be said.

I will refer you to my parents sage advice regarding your denoms who all believe in OS as you do --- "If Johnny jumps off the cliff and dies, does that mean you should?" It was "in vogue" -- a "fad" -- because churches were trying (as Amy said) to get infants to the baptismal waters for salvation just like the Catholics. In fact, Augustinianism was acceptable to the Catholics for centuries before it became Calvinism/Reform.

Think about it: How many times have you asked someone if they are saved and they refer to their infant baptism in such-and-such denomination?

skypair

 

[skypair]

James,

Here's perhaps the fatal flaw that follows all through your theology. You claim that all are automatically guilty of sin in Adam, right? Just for being born. Without doing anything bad.

Then you claim, in your doctrine of "election," that many are "automatically" saved in Christ without ever doing anything good. They were just as passively "reborn to it" as they were born into sin.

Cause look --- wouldn't it follow that if one was born to sin and total depravity then one who was reborn would be reborn to only do good?

Instead, what we believe is that there is nothing that is "automatic." A person makes their own choices and is "in" either Adam or Christ by a free will choice they made.

skypair

 

[skypair]

This reminds me of a pastor who once said to me that I read too many commentaries. I will grant that there is a danger of laziness there if a man or woman not also be a student of Scripture. But he was faulting me for reading commentaries frequently and exhorted me to read the Scriptures only. I told the dear pastor that if I took his advice, would be it ok if I left off from listening to his commentary each Sunday as well?

Well, that reminds me of one of those "it went right over your head" moments! :laugh: What the good pastor was TRYING to say is that you were not letting the Holy Spirit speak to you. And after your rejoinder, I bet he thought "Sad. That man's quite possibly never heard the Spirit speak to him."

We must be careful about an attitude that pretends to be pious but is in fact a root of pride.

And your response to him wasn't pride speaking?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Praise be to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. He chose me in Him before the foundation of the world. He has blessed me exceedingly. He pre-determined me to adoption through Jesus Christ according to His will. He made me accepted in the Beloved. In Christ Jesus I have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of my sins, accoding to His grace. He has made known to me His will, that He is gathering together in one all things in Christ. In Christ I have obtained an inheritance because I was predestinated accoding to His purpose: Who works all things after the counsel of His will---that I should be to the praise of His glory, who also has trusted in Him, after I heard the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, in whom after I believed, I was sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

That's a testimony truly worthy of a Calvinist! :thumbs: But are you sure you weren't "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" BEFORE you believed like your brethren -- in "regeneration?"

skypair

 

[ReformedBaptist]

That Adam sinned no one denies. Both man and angels sinned and did so by willful, voluntary choice. God did not make Adam sin. And in no way is God the author of sin. I think on this we can all be agreed.

But what are the effects of Adam's transgression on the human race if any? The Bible teaches in two main ways.

1. Inherited, or imputed, guilt. Romans 5:12 is teaching that when Adam sinned, we sinned in him. In the KJV the text reads, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" What this is teaching is that death entered into the world through Adam's transgression, by sin, and as a result, death passed upon all men because all sinned..in Adam. Consider Wycliffe's translation of the verse: "Therefore as by one man sin entered into this world [sin entered into the world], and by sin death, and so death passed forth into all men, in which man all men sinned."

The context of the passage makes this clear. The Apostle is not talking here about individual sins that we all commit. He is comparing Adam's act and its affect on his posterity with Christ's act and its affect on His posterity. Romans 5:13-14

Romans 5:18-19 further solidifies this understanding:

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

It is through the trespass of one that many were made sinners. The verb here is an aorist indicative indicating completed past action.

The entire human race was in Adam and he represented mankind. Therefore, when Adam sinned, we sinned in Him because God counted his action to our account. The misunderstanding on this board is that God is punishing us for Adam's sin. This is not the teaching of original sin, or what can be called original guilt. It is our sin as much as it was Adam's in that we sinned in him.

What people generally complain about against this doctrine is that its unfair, and so they reject it. I would only caution those who do this to consider that when you attempt to deconstruct this doctrine of imputation, you render meaningless the entire argument, and its focal point, that the Apostle is making. Namely, that we have the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to us IN HIM. If you remove by your reasoning our sinning in Adam, and his act being counted as truly our own, then you destroy the argument of the epistle that Christ's acts are truly ours in Him.

God regarded the entire human race in Adam as its head. And God regards all Christians as represented by Christ is their head.

This is the area where there is disagreement.

The second affect of Adam's transgression is that we have a sinful nature because of Adam's sin. Unless needed, I am not going to go into this because I don't there are any who would deny this.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

That's a testimony truly worthy of a Calvinist! :thumbs: But are you sure you weren't "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" BEFORE you believed like your brethren -- in "regeneration?"

skypair

I know I said I would not comment to you anymore, but if I be permitted one exception...because of your comment here I cannot resist a comment. In typing my testimony I followed Ephesians 1 to the letter, only personalizing it. So, while this will be to your shagrin, you have just called the Scriptures themselves, and the testimony the Apostle Paul made of the Ephesians (and all who believe in Christ) and the salvation of God the Father in Christ Jesus...worthy of a Calvinist. And coming from you skypair ---that is priceless. :laugh: :laugh: :godisgood: This one I have HAD to copy and save.

Edited: To fix some wording, and add a sentence.

 

[skypair]

We are born at enmity with God -- we are under His wrath. We are dead in trespasses and sins. Yes, spiritually dead. But Christ will raise up some of His pleasing -- He will make them spiritually alive by His saving grace.

:laugh: :laugh: "Rip rushes in, where angels fear to tread,
And so he comes to you, sweet amy, his heart above his head." :laugh:

Rip, does it ever occur to you to actually find scriptural support for this "Christ will raise up some [of the infant dead] of His own pleasing?" What gospel is that in??

skypair

 

[Rippon]

I know I said I would not comment to you anymore, but if I be permitted one exception...because of this comment I cannot resist a comment. In typing my testimony I followed Ephesians 1 to the letter, only personalizing it. So, while this will be to your shagrin, you have just called the Scriptures themselves, and the testimony the Apostle Paul of the Ephesians and the salvation of God the Father in Christ Jesus...worhty of a Calvinist. And coming from you skypair ---that is priceless. :laugh: :laugh: :godisgood:

Skypair deserves to tell you touche! I knew all along that Sp thought Paul was a dreaded Calvinist.:laugh:

 

[Rippon]

Rip, does it ever occur to you to actually find scriptural support for this "Christ will raise up some [of the infant dead] of His own pleasing?" What gospel is that in??

skypair

I didn't say a word about the "infant dead".That's out of your fertile imagination Sp.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Skypair deserves to tell you touche! I knew all along that Sp thought Paul was a dreaded Calvinist.:laugh:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: This is just toooooo funny! hahahahaha

 

[skypair]

I know I said I would not comment to you anymore, but if I be permitted one exception...because of this comment I cannot resist a comment. In typing my testimony I followed Ephesians 1 to the letter, only personalizing it. So, while this will be to your [c]hagrin, you have just called the Scriptures themselves, and the testimony the Apostle Paul of the Ephesians and the salvation of God the Father in Christ Jesus...worhty of a Calvinist. And coming from you skypair ---that is priceless. :laugh: :godisgood:

:wavey: I recognized it, RB. Were you regenerated before you believed or after? Because it would be "typical" of a Calvinist to not understand Paul's terminology and say that he, as a Calvinist, was "regenerated" before and "sealed" after he believed --- when, in fact, they are the same thing. The ordo saludis ought to be, as Paul put it, "believed, then sealed"/"regenerated." But it's not beneath a Calvinist to "fine tune" what Paul said with confusing terminology. :thumbs:

skypair

 

[skypair]

That Adam sinned no one denies. Both man and angels sinned and did so by willful, voluntary choice. God did not make Adam sin. And in no way is God the author of sin. I think on this we can all be agreed.

Absolutely! This is the answer to one of Calvinism's great "mysteries" -- how evil entered the world? By free will! Thank you, RB! :thumbs:

But what are the effects of Adam's transgression on the human race if any? The Bible teaches in two main ways.

1. Inherited, or imputed, guilt. Romans 5:12 is teaching that when Adam sinned, we sinned in him. In the KJV the text reads, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

See -- you need to be more careful with your interpretation. The verse does say "upon all MEN" and it does say that it passed to "all MEN" because they all SINNED.

I do not see any inconsistency in MEN sinning and INFANTS not. Again, you do your commentaries well but does the Spirit tell you this?

Romans 5:18-19 further solidifies this understanding:

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Do you notice that in this passage, there is a transition from ALL (who will die physically) to MANY (who will die spiritually)? Why "many," RB? 1) Because INFANTS don't die spiritually (It's an interesting adjunct to Dan 12:2 where "many who sleep in the dust" will be resurrected to either shame or life. What about the other "many?" Infants? Or formerly raptured?) 2) "Many" because many die on account of the working of the 'sin nature.' That's not to say 'sin guilt.' It IS to say that Adam gave us a sin nature that, upon reaching some AoA, would condemn us but NOT those who never reach that age.

Did you notice that "justification of life" came to ALL men? How does that fit with "election?" (Oh, that's right. You're not going to answer me, are you. ANYONE?) "Justification of life," the "free gift," is also physical life -- the "justification" of which is to hear about (be drawn to) Christ.

The misunderstanding on this board is that God is punishing us for Adam's sin. This is not the teaching of original sin, or what can be called original guilt. It is our sin as much as it was Adam's in that we sinned in him.

What people generally complain about against this doctrine is that its unfair, and so they reject it. I would only caution those who do this to consider that when you attempt to deconstruct this doctrine of imputation, you render meaningless the entire argument, and its focal point, that the Apostle is making. Namely, that we have the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to us IN HIM. If you remove by your reasoning our sinning in Adam, and his act being counted as truly our own, then you destroy the argument of the epistle that Christ's acts are truly ours in Him.

This section is very confusing and sounds like many of the long, drawn out confessions of old where the reader is so "snowed" by the "blizzard" of assertions that he never can connect any in a logical paradigm.

Let's look, for instance, at where you seem to say we are not guilty of Adam's sin (not punished for it) but we are guilty because we "sinned in him." Then you go on to say that if we remove this guilt "in Adam," we also remove our justification "in Christ." No, you are just having difficulty understanding how both are applied, RB. They are not "automatically" applied as you theology teaches -- "in Adam" to the reprobates and "in Christ" to the elect. They are applied through OUR free will choices to a) sin and b) seek redemption.

The second affect of Adam's transgression is that we have a sinful nature because of Adam's sin. Unless needed, I am not going to go into this because I don't there are any who would deny this.

Well, you must consider this because it explains why Paul goes from speaking of ALL to speaking of MANY. ALL will die physically with Adam as their "federal head." Only MANY will die spiritually because some will not sin due to innocence.

skypair