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The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

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Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
MarysSon said:
Actually - post #106 was linguistically spot-on.
The language of the document would have been ludicrously redundant if "Catholic Church" has NOT been used as a proper noun - as a title.
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My point is, it is not talking about the church that today calls itself the Catholic Church.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Walpole said:
Death is punishment for sin. If all the punishment due for your sins has been paid, why are Protestants still suffering death?

Death is the ultimate example of Protestants implicitly accepting the concept of purgatory, that is, the temporal punishment due to sin. For unless you plan on riding out your life until the eschaton, you cannot escape death.
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We are not suffering physical death for our sin, but the fall of mankind. It was part of the curse of the fall. The SECOND death is punishment for each individual's sin. Christ conquered that death. There is not a single verse that says believers still pay for their sins.
 
M

MarysSon

Active Member
davidtaylorjr said:
My point is, it is not talking about the church that today calls itself the Catholic Church.
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davidtaylorjr said:
My point is, it is not talking about the church that today calls itself the Catholic Church.
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Tell me what Church this DOES sound like then . . .

Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Does that sound like YOUR sect?
 
JoeT

JoeT

Member
davidtaylorjr said:
We are not suffering physical death for our sin, but the fall of mankind. It was part of the curse of the fall. The SECOND death is punishment for each individual's sin. Christ conquered that death. There is not a single verse that says believers still pay for their sins.
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Your saying we are paying the punishment for the sin of one man? How can that be? I thought Christ 'paid the price'? What happens after Christ pays the price for your inherited sin in Baptism, who pays that price? Is it a freebee because we said 'I believe', therefore one is free to sin?

JoeT
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
MarysSon said:
Tell me what Church this DOES sound like then . . .

Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Does that sound like YOUR sect?
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Again, not sure what this has to do with anything. This is not Scripture.
 
JoeT

JoeT

Member
davidtaylorjr said:
Yes, really.
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The four gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are extensively about how Christ established the Kingdom, His Church and how it is the new Israel on earth, His nation.

Yes, those are people who are a part of the church, but their group is not the church. The people are.
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How does a Church not make a Church? Let's see, 'yes they are part of an organized 'church'; but not their group is not the Church - how does this work? Are not the people in the group part of the church? And do they know they are not in Christ's Church.

To show that Christ fulfilled prophecy.
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The prophecy was that a King would be born, a Messias, a Divine King. Did He defeat death or did He defeat the Romans? Did He just get on the escalator to heaven and leave all His followers in a lurch?

JoeT
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
JoeT said:
The four gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are extensively about how Christ established the Kingdom, His Church and how it is the new Israel on earth, His nation.
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The church are His chosen PEOPLE. Made up of individuals.
JoeT said:
He came 2,000 years ago; hung himself on a cross, to pay for the poster's sins so He could sin with recklessness?
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Who here has argued that? Nobody. Another strawman distraction. Romans 6 makes clear we are not to continue in sin so grace can continue to be shown. But there is also NO verse that says Christians must still pay for their sins.
 
JoeT

JoeT

Member
davidtaylorjr said:
The church are His chosen PEOPLE. Made up of individuals.
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The Church is also the House of God His Kingdom, in Greek kyriakon, the House of God.

Who here has argued that? Nobody. Another strawman distraction. Romans 6 makes clear we are not to continue in sin so grace can continue to be shown. But there is also NO verse that says Christians must still pay for their sins.
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So, what do you do with 1 John 1:10 if we can't sin after Baptism and what do we do with 1 John 2:4 if we are sinners, can you confess your sins to a priest? Oh wait, you don't have sacramental priests. What then?

JoeT
 
JoeT

JoeT

Member
davidtaylorjr said:
We are not suffering physical death for our sin, but the fall of mankind. It was part of the curse of the fall. The SECOND death is punishment for each individual's sin. Christ conquered that death. There is not a single verse that says believers still pay for their sins.
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Our first death isn't being born because we are born without justice . . . which is spiritual death. However our first death is Baptism, "For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life." [Romans 6:4] The second death is for the unbelievers and those with grave sins

And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire. . .But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." [Apocalypse 20:14-15; 21:8]. I thought Jesus Christ paid for their sins?

JoeT
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
JoeT said:
Our first death isn't being born because we are born without justice . . . which is spiritual death. However our first death is Baptism, "For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life." [Romans 6:4] The second death is for the unbelievers and those with grave sins

And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire. . .But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." [Apocalypse 20:14-15; 21:8]. I thought Jesus Christ paid for their sins?

JoeT
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Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. I'm done wasting my time with you if you can't even understand or honestly discuss BASIC concepts.
 
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