The Doctrine of Total Depravity Scripturally Opened and Explained

sorry for the very delayed response, Bro. Dallas. usually i am unable to get to the net during weekends, that is why i was not able to attend at your response.

what i am trying to say is this: when total depravity is talked about, it usually focuses on how unable man is, both in pleasing God and in trying to find Him. however, i am trying to iterate the event on how each man becomes totally depraved, and not exactly what the effects of total depravity are.

getting straight to the point, each man (except for Adam) was not given the chance to test his own volition to get depraved. rather, he was born with that depravity. that is why when one believes in total depravity, it must be clear to him that while such condition gets each one condemned, each one was not tested for his obedience (or disobedience) to be there. rather, each one was made totally depraved regardless of his own volition.

 

actually, Frogman, what i'm trying to get at is the notion that: given that you agree with me, it can be said that the non-elects are indeed condemned, but they are not responsible for their own condemnation.

i know this gets the discussion off topic, but we already arrived at a conclusion anyway, and between us, there is no more to discuss with TP since we already agreed on what it is, according to Calvinism.

 

This truth is clearly taught by Paul the apostle in such verses as Romans 5:12, 3:12.

5:12 Wherefore, as through one man the sin entered into the world, and the death by the sin, and thus the death passed through to (Gr. eis - to/into) all men, on ground of which thing all sinned,

3:12 They all turned away, together they were rendered useless (Gr. êchreiôthêsan; aorist passive indicative). Existeth not a doer of kindness, existeth not so much as one.

Also Rom. 5:19

For as by the disobedience of the one man the many were constituted sinful (by sovereign divine imputation), in this manner also by means of the obedience of the One shall the many be constituted righteous (by sovereign divine imputation).

God sovereignly decreed the fall. But God is not the author of sin, for He tempts no man. Every man is tempted of his own lustful depraved nature. And by the fall God constituted all of Adam's race sinful by imputation. Thus they were sinful imputatively even before they were born in due time, and concretely sinful from the point of conception by the transmitted Adamic nature, which issues in manifest sinful acts in due time, and then they are full well entitled to be called sinners (sinning ones). They were constituted sinful apart from own volition, a solemn biblical fact. They were procreated sinful apart from own volition, also solemn truth. All this taken together leaves creature man absolutely hopeless in himself. Some would say it is not so, but the Bible says it is so.

Harald

 

scriptures do not talk of any consequences of the sin nature. it does, however, tell that the wages of sin is death. with imputation of sin, it is not merely making man sinful. it is, rather:

1. imputing Adam's sin to each born child, as if the child sinned himself. this made the child worthy of condemnation. he was imputed of a sin. he was not merely made sinful - he was imputed of a sin!

2. being sinful was transmitted by the parents to the child seminally. thus, everyone is born a sinner, or has the nature to sin. committing the first sin, however, does not matter, for God has imputed the very first sin that will get an individual condemned - that is Adam's.

by God decreing the fall does not mean he made Adam decide to sin. rather, knowing that Adam would disobey, God decreed that such an event will happen, that a moment to make a decision would appear, and that Adam would be able to make his decision. it is not that God would have Adam disobey. it is just that God would make certain that the event of Adam making a decision would happen. thus, God decreed the fall, but did not casue it.

God, however, chooses to impute Adam's sin to each born individual that gets each one condemned regardless of his volition.

 

How about this: "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." We dare not say that our hearts somehow have changed since the fall toward the good. This sure sounds like a huge consequence of the fall don't you think?

This statement does not make sense. In other words, you say that God determines what will take place through His perfect knowledge. It would be like my saying that "I determined the water in the pool was very cold by putting my toe in the water". "Determined" here is passive: I did not make the water hot or cold, I just passively took in knowledge that it was, in fact, cold. We could contrast this with my saying, "I installed a heating system in my pool, and determined the temperature would stay at 76 degrees." Here, "determined" is active because I am actually making the water a particular temperature.

Again, what would your answer be to this vitally important question: "Does God's foreknowledge determine what He decrees or does God's decree determine what He foreknows?"

I enjoy our conversation!!

Pardi

 

Pardi

yeah, how about that? what do you mean by how about that? is that suppose to counter any of what i said? just kidding

you see Romans 3:23 speaks of the wages of sin, which is death. every sin deserves death. it is sin which has reference to the wage of death. it is the sin nature, however, that causes each man to commit sins. your quote does not contradict with what i said. more so, the scriptures do not tell of the wages of the sin nature.

it's both, Pardi. you see, God decrees that something will happen. thus, God knows it. (decree before foreknowledge)

on the other hand, God also decrees to let man decide. thus God, being omniscient, foreknows man's decision. in here God decrees that the man will certainly make that decision. what God decrees when it involves man making a decision is the fact that man will indeed be able to make his decision, as God forknew he will (or how he would).

i think it's on another thread i put this:

imagine God forbidding (which He did) Adam to eat of the "fruit". therefore, it is not God's will for Adam to disobey. if, then, you say that God caused Adam to disobey as it is God's will, then it creates inconsistency in God's part, which can never happen.

me too

 

I believe in the absolute predestination of all things by God in eternity. God sovereignly decreed the fall of Adam, just as He decreed Lucifer's fall, which chronologically considered took place prior to Adam's. And God's decreeing Adam's fall of course involved decreeing Adam's disobedience. Yet God has done all these things in such a manner that only foolish men can accuse Him of being the author of sin. God does not tempt or solicit any man to offend against Him. In God's mind all things which He thinks and wills and purposes etc. occur co-simultaneously. He is eternal, and in the Eternal One is no chronology of thoughts etc. Infralapsarianism is a cardinal theological heresy which reflects ignorance of God's eternality. Every single thing which comes to pass in time has been sovereignly decreed in eternity in and by God Almighty. Eve's giving in to the serpent's subtilty was also decreed by God when there was none else than the triune Elohim. God decreed Adam's fall and disobedience so as to ultimately have it bring glory to Himself by saving a chosen people, chosen in eternity in God the Son. The man who thinks God is unjust or author of sin in the creature is a fool (cp. Romans 9:20).

Harald

 

this is equivalent to saying that God caused Adam to sin, doesn't it? this is also equivalent to saying that God authored sin. if not, how?

on the other hand, God decreed that Adam will make a decision. God did not dictate what Adam will decide. rather, He decreed that Adam will make a decision. of course, God wanted obedience. knowing what Adam will choose, God also decreed that Adam will certainly make his own decision.