The Doctrine of Total Depravity

[evangelist6589]

I think it is terrific that he has the courage to preach on the street, but he should know and understand what he is telling folks.

John (evangelist6589) has repeatedly criticized Arminianism in his posts for months, go back and see for yourself. He doesn't even realize that he is an Arminian.

The fellow should at least be told he is an Arminian so he will quit condemning them in his posts. He thinks he is a Calvinist and he is not.



He's not a fellow Calvinist with other Calvinists. He is not like minded with Calvinists. Calvinists believe in Unconditional Election, he does not.



John knows the difference between Unconditional and Conditional Election, but he seems not to know that a Calvinist cannot believe in Conditional Election as he does.

Why in the world would you allow him to continue in this error? Do you plan to let him continue to think he is a Calvinist when he is not and later try to convert him to Unconditional Election? That's horrible.

I guess it's OK, cause he's going out preaching against Arminians huh? Even though he is one. Folks should be ashamed.

WinMan I am a follower of Christ and thats exactly what I am. When you get to Heaven will Jesus ask if you were a Calvinist or an Arminian? You seem to think that He will.

 

[evangelist6589]

The guy is a graduate of BJU...id think he would know what he is by now...but perhaps he is changing his views. I have not watched him closely...nor have I attempted to school him. All I ever told him is when I hit the streets....I ask, "how brother or sister is God working in your life"...I am not one to sermonize.

I was in Arminian waters at BJU. I believed that man had a FREE-WILL and could choose salvation apart from the work of the HS. I believed evangelism was all about the methods and the results. I was taught that open air was not effective as it produced few results. I believed that man could resist the calling of God and could fall from grace. But my biggest argument was for FREE-WILL and that man can choose God without the work of the Holy Spirit.

Then it all changed when I read Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God by JI Packer. It also changed when I started listening to Way of the Master, and reading books from Reformed such as John MacArthur, Washer, Piper, RC Sproul and the like. I admit I do not have it all together and did not fully comprehend everything at BJU. But frankly BJU oftened stayed out of these kinds of arguments and debates and for good reason. I know that Reformed were in the minority at BJU but they were there. I know that I was first introduced to Way of the Master there by a student, but the program was heavily frowned upon there, but I think so not because of theology, but because of issues of separation which BJU preaches to the core.

Once again I will say that I lean more Calvinist than Arminian and so I may be more Calvinistic like a Erwin Lutzer or a David Jeremiah. But then again I tend to agree more with John MacArthur, Ray Comort, and Paul Washer in most areas over Lutzer, and Jeremiah, so I definitely lean more Reformed.

Winman thinks that one needs to believe with 100% of Reformed to be one and this is false.

 

[InTheLight]

I believed that man had a FREE-WILL and could choose salvation apart from the work of the HS

But my biggest argument was for FREE-WILL and that man can choose God without the work of the Holy Spirit.

How many times to you have to be told that this is not an Arminian belief? This is Pelagianism.

 

[evangelist6589]

How many times to you have to be told that this is not an Arminian belief? This is Pelagianism.

I just read a chapter in Ashamed of the Gospel by MacArthur and he explained clearly unconditional election. I also read a chapter in Chosen but Free and he argued that faith is not a gift for the elect, and those that have not been elected could choose God. Then I read a chapter in David Jeremiah's book God in You and he also clearly says that God has to do the conversion and grant the new birth, so he would be a Calvinist like John MacArthur. Bur Norm Geisler is not one.

Can you explain Pelagianism please? This is something you have not done. Nevermind I found an article. Well this seems to be the doctrine that Norm Geisler may be teaching in his book.

 

[Winman]

Winman thinks that one needs to believe with 100% of Reformed to be one and this is false.

You cannot believe in Conditional Election and be Calvinist.

To say you can reject Unconditional Election and still be a Calvinist is like saying you can reject Jesus Christ and still be a Christian. You can't do it.

Calvinists believe in "monergism", that salvation is 100% of God. You are so depraved you cannot possibly choose to believe in God, therefore God must choose you and regenerate you before you have this choice. Therefore his choice is not based upon the condition that you believed.

Non-Cals or Arminians believe in "synergism". We believe that men are indeed sinful, yet we retain the ability to choose to believe in Christ or not. Many non-Cals or Arminians believe God chooses whom he foresees in his foreknowledge who will believe in time. This is what you claimed you believed in another post.

Calvinists do not believe we choose God as you believe. They believe that is absolutely impossible, you are too depraved to do so, therefore God cannot possibly choose you according to this condition.

You can insist that you can reject Unconditional Election and are still a Calvinist, but you are fooling yourself, such a thing is not possible. If you reject Unconditional Election, then you are NOT a Calvinist or Reformed.

 

[evangelist6589]

You cannot believe in Conditional Election and be Calvinist.

To say you can reject Unconditional Election and still be a Calvinist is like saying you can reject Jesus Christ and still be a Christian. You can't do it.

Calvinists believe in "monergism", that salvation is 100% of God. You are so depraved you cannot possibly choose to believe in God, therefore God must choose you and regenerate you before you have this choice. Therefore his choice is not based upon the condition that you believed.

Non-Cals or Arminians believe in "synergism". We believe that men are indeed sinful, yet we retain the ability to choose to believe in Christ or not. Many non-Cals or Arminians believe God chooses whom he foresees in his foreknowledge who will believe in time. This is what you claimed you believed in another post.

Calvinists do not believe we choose God as you believe. They believe that is absolutely impossible, you are too depraved to do so, therefore God cannot possibly choose you according to this condition.

You can insist that you can reject Unconditional Election and are still a Calvinist, but you are fooling yourself, such a thing is not possible. If you reject Unconditional Election, then you are NOT a Calvinist or Reformed.

Then I believe in unconditional election but do not fully understand how ti works. I read a chapter on the doctrine from a Macarthur book, and also from a David Jeremiah book where he clearly said that God grants the new birth and they cannot choose it for themselves. This seems so different than what Norm Geisler taught in his book Chosen but free.

 

[Winman]

Then I believe in unconditional election but do not fully understand how ti works. I read a chapter on the doctrine from a Macarthur book, and also from a David Jeremiah book where he clearly said that God grants the new birth and they cannot choose it for themselves. This seems so different than what Norm Geisler taught in his book Chosen but free.

It is different! If Norm Geisler believes man retains the ability to choose Jesus, then he cannot truly be a Calvinist. The Calvinist believes God must first choose you unconditionally and regenerate you before you can have the will, desire, or ability to believe. You simply cannot believe in this system.

If Unconditonal Election is true, then only those whom God has chosen can be saved, all those whom God passes over will be lost and there is nothing they can do about it. In fact, they will never desire to be saved if this doctrine is true.

Many Calvinists reject the idea that God also chooses to reprobate those whom he passes over, but Calvin himself said this is nonsense.

Many indeed (thinking to excuse God) own election, and yet deny reprobation; but this is quite silly and childish. For without reprobation, election itself cannot stand; whom God passes by, those he reprobates. It is one and the same thing (Calv. Inst., book 3, chapter 23, section 1).

Calvin insists (and I believe rightly so), that if God unconditionally elects only some people to be saved, then he reprobates all the rest whom he chose to pass over.

Is this what you believe about God?

You really can't be a 4 point Calvinist.

http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?416

 

[Winman]

By the way, Norm Geisler himself denies that he is a 5 point Calvinist. Watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPpkSiO1Ci4

 

[Iconoclast]

I was in Arminian waters at BJU. I believed that man had a FREE-WILL and could choose salvation apart from the work of the HS. I believed evangelism was all about the methods and the results. I was taught that open air was not effective as it produced few results. I believed that man could resist the calling of God and could fall from grace. But my biggest argument was for FREE-WILL and that man can choose God without the work of the Holy Spirit.

Then it all changed when I read Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God by JI Packer. It also changed when I started listening to Way of the Master, and reading books from Reformed such as John MacArthur, Washer, Piper, RC Sproul and the like. I admit I do not have it all together and did not fully comprehend everything at BJU. But frankly BJU oftened stayed out of these kinds of arguments and debates and for good reason. I know that Reformed were in the minority at BJU but they were there. I know that I was first introduced to Way of the Master there by a student, but the program was heavily frowned upon there, but I think so not because of theology, but because of issues of separation which BJU preaches to the core.

Once again I will say that I lean more Calvinist than Arminian and so I may be more Calvinistic like a Erwin Lutzer or a David Jeremiah. But then again I tend to agree more with John MacArthur, Ray Comort, and Paul Washer in most areas over Lutzer, and Jeremiah, so I definitely lean more Reformed.

Winman thinks that one needs to believe with 100% of Reformed to be one and this is false.

E6589-
just keep serving God and studying.Once you see it, all the pieces fit together just fine.....there is much to study.
It is not like signing up for a sports team. Study so you can more faithfully serve God....the Spirit is already opening much truth to you...it will continue to grow in you!

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

 

[evangelist6589]

E6589-
just keep serving God and studying.Once you see it, all the pieces fit together just fine.....there is much to study.
It is not like signing up for a sports team. Study so you can more faithfully serve God....the Spirit is already opening much truth to you...it will continue to grow in you!

Thank you so much for this info brother. Bye the way what book did you get these quotes from?

 

[Inspector Javert]

I was in Arminian waters at BJU. I believed that man had a FREE-WILL and could choose salvation apart from the work of the HS.

If you believed that....you were NOT an Arminian.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you believed that....you were NOT an Arminian.

YEA but is that whay BJU teaches? Wow