The Doctrines of Grace and the preaching of the Gospel

[Benjamin]

The Bible doesn't tell me that I should tell sinners that Christ died for them. It does tell me that Christ came into the world to save sinners (plural). The Bible tells me that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. I am not Charles Finney. My job is not to prey upon the emotions of the hearer. My job is present these Gospel truths:

1. Man is a sinner and has broken God's covenant.
2. As a covenant-breaker sinners face a Christ-less eternity in torment in a real and literal lake of fire.
3. Jesus Christ is God.
4. He kept and fulfilled the Law in perfect obedience, being the first person to ever do so.
5. He suffered and died on the cross to atone for sin.
6. Three days later He rose again, triumphing over the penalty of sin - death.
7. All who repent of their sins, and place their faith on Christ alone and His finished work on the cross have their sins forgiven and pass from death to life.

This message is universal in application. I do not have to tell Sally that Christ died for her. Christ died for sinners, of which Mary is one.

Which message is that again??? Oh, yeah:

Originnally posted by Herold:
The Doctrines of Grace preacher does no such thing. He preaches as though Arminianism was true.

Seems a bit dishonest to me??? How many time have we heard this in a public arena?:

8. "Calvinism/Determinism/DoG "IS" the Gospel."


Yet, when they preach it....well, I guess I've heard that many Calvinist/Determinist/DoGs are "Arminian at heart" when it comes down to their true convictions. :saint: How sweet!

Thanks for another great "honest" example of how your doctrine's gospel does not contain "pre-selection and no hope for some" ...through not disclosing the "whole gospel"!

As for my Gospel, I got nothing to hold back:

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[Yeshua1]

Which message is that again??? Oh, yeah:



Seems a bit dishonest to me??? How many time have we heard this in a public arena?:

8. "Calvinism/Determinism/DoG "IS" the Gospel."


Yet, when they preach it....well, I guess I've heard that many Calvinist/Determinist/DoGs are "Arminian at heart" when it comes down to their true convictions. :saint: How sweet!

Thanks for another great "honest" example of how your doctrine's gospel does not contain "pre-selection and no hope for some" ...through not disclosing the "whole gospel"!

As for my Gospel, I got nothing to hold back:

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Indeed, for ALl who have been elected unto eternal life in christ shall receive him and be saved!

 

[Herald]

Benjamin,

You, sir, are dishonest; manipulative. You rejoice in bringing your brothers in Christ down and assigning to them dishonest motives. Instead of seeking to bring brothers together you seek to divide. You have an unrepentant, hard heart. I have since apologized for my insensitive and angry rhetoric, but that is not your way. You consider yourself to be above reproach, but what you really are is an angry man who displays anything but the spirit of Christ. I have tried to avoid engaging with you because of the way you are. I pray that God prevails upon your hard heart.

 

[Benjamin]

Indeed, *for ALl who have been elected unto eternal life in christ shall receive him and be saved!

Originally Posted by Benjamin
Which message is that again??? Oh, yeah:



Seems a bit dishonest to me??? How many time have we heard this in a public arena?:

8. "Calvinism/Determinism/DoG "IS" the Gospel."


Yet, when they preach it....well, I guess I've heard that many Calvinist/Determinist/DoGs are "Arminian at heart" when it comes down to their true convictions. :saint: How sweet!

Thanks for another great "honest" example of how your doctrine's gospel does not contain *"pre-selection and no hope for some" ...through not disclosing the "whole gospel"!

Preach that "gospel", Yeshua1! :thumbs:

 

[Benjamin]

Benjamin,

You, sir, are dishonest; manipulative.

Says the man of these words:

Originnally posted by Herold:
The Doctrines of Grace preacher does no such thing. He preaches as though Arminianism was true.

You rejoice in bringing your brothers in Christ down and assigning to them dishonest motives.

I rejoice in bringing down your doctrine by exposing it for how it goes about to disguise the "rest of the story". If the truth hurts...

Instead of seeking to bring brothers together you seek to divide.

I seek the truth, the "whole" "Truth" in presenting the Gospel! I welcome division from those who don't, and "won't" because they have something to hide.

You have an unrepentant, hard heart.

I have nothing to repent of...Sir! You do! I stand by the truth in which I am not ashamed to disclose the plan of God as I see it! GENUINE HOPE FOR ALL MEN!!! - according to the "Gospel!"

I have since apologized for my insensitive and angry rhetoric, but that is not your way.

Again, why should I apologize for bringing "your doctrine's" lies to light and bringing them down by pointing to your lack of disclosure??? Your way of apology is to play one up-manship with it while sticking to your agenda, that is all.

You consider yourself to be above reproach, but what you really are is an angry man who displays anything but the spirit of Christ.

I am a man of conviction that the Gospel is genuinely given for all men in truth! I fight the good fight! Your judgment of my character are merely self serving mis-representations.

I have tried to avoid engaging with you because of the way you are. I pray that God prevails upon your hard heart.

You obviously "avoid" many things. I pray that God show you the importance of spreading the "whole" Truth ("genuine" hope for all) when preaching - what you call the Gospel Truth!

Again, to any lurkers on this board who may have come by here during this joyful time looking to know God, who might be lead astray by being told His promises are only for the pre-selected few. To you I will apologize to that you have witnessed the agenda of some here. I know you can see how some will disguise their doctrines. [edit] His promises genuinely apply to "YOU"! It's (the you that this promise belongs to) is what is in the Bible for YOU and You can find it.

For the truth of this matter which started the agenda again by beginning this thread because in despise of my preaching the True Gospel to genuinely belong to "YOU" (thinking it insulting to "his" gospel), see here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1936298&postcount=13


Be blessed in the Truth and a Very Merry Christmas to all!

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin wrote:

P.S. It was just a personal inside joke. I would NEVER do such a thing...nor would I EVER start teaching them what Calvinist/Determinst/DoG's preach about the "Gospel" to reinforce their arguments about them coming up with an excuse and enable them to go about to spread that evil to others while taking advantage of the Devil's tools.

You would first have to have an understanding of the teaching ,to begin to present it.

Your post is quite unlike the Apostle Paul who wrote this:

25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Paul did not shrink back, he did not slacken sail, he declared all of the word of God.
The fact that he mentions the doctrines of grace everywhere shows this truth.

You seem to have no place for the truth if you declare in your own words that you would never teach these things. So be it....we can see by your posts exactly who you are and what you do.

Then you post this:

You obviously "avoid" many things. I pray that God show you the importance of spreading the "whole" Truth ("genuine" hope for all) when preaching - what you call the Gospel Truth!

Yeah right...lol....almost unbelievable....lol

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin,

You, sir, are dishonest; manipulative. You rejoice in bringing your brothers in Christ down and assigning to them dishonest motives. Instead of seeking to bring brothers together you seek to divide. You have an unrepentant, hard heart. I have since apologized for my insensitive and angry rhetoric, but that is not your way. You consider yourself to be above reproach, but what you really are is an angry man who displays anything but the spirit of Christ. I have tried to avoid engaging with you because of the way you are. I pray that God prevails upon your hard heart.

:thumbs::applause::applause:...sad as it is many are not prepared to go over these things.

 

[Iconoclast]

That's just it, you don't preach from your perspective, you preach like an Arminian. I have seen Calvinists directly say they preach like Arminians. You don't tell folks what you really believe, you conceal that until after they believe, then you reveal your true beliefs to them.

It doesn't speak well of Calvinism that you must conceal your true beliefs and be deceptive in your presentation of the gospel. Of course, you will deny that you are deceptive. Let's just say you fail to tell folks EVERYTHING you really believe.


Could you get up in front of a crowd of 15,000 folks in a stadium and honestly say, "Jesus died for your sins!" as Paul said?

You can't say that can you? Then you are not preaching the same gospel Paul did.

Paul nor any of the apostles never said that. he did say Jesus died for sinners, for the church, for any who believe.....

also it is not a hiding of truth...here is how the godly brethren spoke of this:

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

:wavey::love2::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin

Good, as a matter of fact...GREAT!!! Seems we may yet make some progress of drawing the truth out in this debate after all! Because that's all I needed from you to do is to stand by “your” words in the "context" in which they were given

As I said i will stand by my posts and will contrast them with your erroneous notions any day. Your lie and twisting is exposed....by the original post which you cannot now even own up to...I understand:laugh:
here again is the full context ..in order..leading up to the part you try to isolate...in vain

Benjamin.....I take the conversation wherever it needs to go;

1] We are all sinners,having broken God's law in thought word and deed.

2] God is holy and has planned to punish all sin.....either in the sinner, or In His appointed substitute

3] Jesus came to save a multitude of sinners, by offering His sinless perfect life as a substitute for those sinners who believe in Him.

4] Anyone who understands they are guilty before a Holy God...needs to repent of all known sin,and seek God's mercy. As God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

5] Jesus is the only way..the only thing the Father is well pleased with.

6] If someone repents and believes the gospel,I explain that God would have them join with a bible believing fellowship,that is the local church.

Benjamin.. if the person has some religious backround,or brings up certain questions that require me to speak about God's electing purposes I am not shy about that. It has happened many times....it goes something like this;

I might offer some of what i offered above...then the person starts to question...what about the heathen, or what if someone never hears about Jesus etc.

1] I explain God has an eternal purpose that He has made known to the church,and establish that the scriptures are true and trust worthy.

2] God's holy law is perfectly just...and must be perfectly kept

3] Man having fallen in Adam ...is not able to keep the law perfectly

4] God seeing all mankind as fallen In Adam...has purposed to save a multitude of sinners In Christ.

5] The Father gives this multitude to the Son before the world was made.

6] The Son comes into the world in the form of a servant,to live and die for these chosen and elected persons.

7] The Son has promised that each and everyone of these persons...at a point in time....will repent and believe the gospel not one will be lost

8] I ask the person if Jesus said all that are given will come to Him...have you came to Jesus savingly yet? If not why not. I do my best to leave them with no hope...outside of Jesus....

9] I quote Jesus words to those in jn8
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
and Hebrews 7;
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them

As I say...if the conversation goes this way...I will go this way.


Then you asked:
Quote:
and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected
Benjamin...this is a good question...
I never say it that way....

1] I do not know if he is elect or not

2] He does not know if he is elect or not

3] I make Clear that Jesus alone is the only Saviour of sinners

4] if election comes up.....I stress that it is certain to come to pass..I tell Him the truth...do not hide it under a bushel.
5] I stress that the issue he needs to concern himself with..is His sin against a Holy God that has to be paid for.....He is responsible to repent and believe the gospel command.

6] If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......

7] I do not give Him false hope, I do not give him no hope.....just point out that the only Hope is In Jesus...not remaining in Adam.

If you want we can start a new thread...debate if you will....on each of these points listed.....I will give a biblical case for my list.....you can offer your....philosophy....or if you are up to it...you can try scripture...:thumbs:

You got caught Icon, it's part of "your" (pre-selection and no hope) "true" gospel, live with it! Be true to your agenda in which you eagerly and proudly await to "help" the world understand!

yes...I have been caught being a faithful witness to the truth of God ...and all the words therein...i am guilty of full disclosure of the Electing love of God as itis found in Jesus.

I speak of the Promise of God to any sinner who believes in Jesus...and the promise of God of the sure righteous judgement of God to those sinners who remain in rebellion to the word.

I would quote more scripture here on this doctrinal point, but you might go and cry to a moderator saying that evil icon has posted more bible verses that you do not like , or that you take personally:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Personally speaking, never a charge from me. Do you also agree that one can also preach the Gospel without adherence and acceptance of the DoG theology?

God can and use any means at His disposal to accomplish His eternal plan.
He works through his word,and His love in the heart of His people.
We can rejoice in that the word goes forth.I rejoice if I hear of a sinner being saved at pacific garden mission. the unshackled program,as much as someone getting saved hearing Eph1 preached.

Getting people lost is a priority...if we help get them to know they are lost, than Jesus can save them.


11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

 

[Winman]

Paul nor any of the apostles never said that. he did say Jesus died for sinners, for the church, for any who believe.....

also it is not a hiding of truth...here is how the godly brethren spoke of this:

:wavey::love2::thumbs:

And how many men are sinners Icon? :wavey:

 

[Benjamin]

If you want we can start a new thread...debate if you will....on each of these points listed.....


yes...I have been caught being a faithful witness to the truth of God ...and all the words therein...i am guilty of full disclosure of the Electing love of God as itis found in Jesus.

Your many words will not hide the shame you should have for perverting the Judgment and Justice of God's Providence in the world by excluding His Loving Mercy to be "GENUINELY" offered to all!

I don't care to watch you dance around the truth and try to avoid it in the same fashion you guys avoid giving full disclosure of your "true'" [sic] "gospel of pre-selected election for the few" which you also admittedly disguise when you preach what you call the "Gospel".

Originnally posted by Herold:
The Doctrines of Grace preacher does no such thing. He preaches as though Arminianism was true.

It would merely be another sorry example of your clan's obvious patterns of deceit and denial. I'll stand by what I have said as sufficiently revealing the truth in the matter.

Originally Posted by Herald
In another thread a poster accused those who preach the Doctrines of Grace of telling people they have not been pre-selected. That is pure rubbish.

Origninally posted by Benjamin:
From his example of preaching the “gospel”:

Quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast:

The Son comes into the world in the form of a servant,to live and die for these chosen and elected persons.


if election comes up.....I stress that it is certain to come to pass..I tell Him the truth...do not hide it under a bushel.

If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......

Originally posted by Benjamin:

"Rubbish" MMMHHMMM

At least Icon is "honest" [sic] about it

Originally Posted by Iconoclast
Sorry you could not find the full quote...but not to worry...I found it in the interest of honesty: I stand by it....

I stand by it then and now...

Good, as a matter of fact...GREAT!!! Seems we may yet make some progress of drawing the truth out in this debate after all! Because that's all I needed from you to do is to stand by “your” words in the "context" in which they were given:

Originally posted by Iconoclast:

[context] If he tries to mock and scoff [/context] like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......

Originally posted by Benjamin:

You got caught Icon, it's part of "your" (pre-selection and no hope) "true" gospel, live with it! Be true to your agenda in which you eagerly and proudly await to "help" the world understand!

Hey, got a funny story for you relating to “your” words! Wouldn’t want you to miss it:


I went by an Atheist board that I used to moderate a Christian section on. Knowing they all like to celebrate Christmas, I recently went by and started a thread there called, “Jesus is the Reason for the Season” to rattle their cages and give an opportunity to plant some seeds and preach some hope for them.

It seems when it comes down to it many, if not all, Atheist will cling to their favorite argument which would support them having an excuse not to believe…especially if you bring up judgment. I never let them get away with that argument of having an excuse.

So anyway, one guy was getting really obstinate after I corrected him several times with scripture, then as usual he resorted to that the "Bible was just a man-made book argument" and that I had no credibility to my interpretations over his ridiculous antics of trying to twist them. Well that was easy enough to answer too pointing to 1 Cor 2 about who had more credibility.

That apparently really angered him and he tried to become really insulting and began calling me a bunch on names. I told him, “You have no excuses, but concerning this conversation you best lighten up before I go “DoG” on you!”

Get it? :smilewinkgrin:


P.S. It was just a personal inside joke. I would NEVER do such a thing...nor would I EVER start teaching them what Calvinist/Determinst/DoG's preach about the "Gospel" to reinforce their arguments about them coming up with an excuse and enable them to go about to spread that evil to others while taking advantage of the Devil's tools.

1Jn 1:1-5 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (2) (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us (3) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (4) And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. (5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.



Joh 1:9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Originally Posted by Herald
In another thread a poster accused those who preach the Doctrines of Grace of telling people they have not been pre-selected.

For the truth of this matter which started the agenda again by beginning this thread because in despise of my preaching the True Gospel to genuinely belong to "YOU" (thinking it insulting to "his" gospel), see here:

I preached the Gospel to all, but obviously the "Determinists" can't stand it! ....that if it were to include a message to beware of those who teach "pre-selected" election in this Christmas season. But this is the Gospel God has prepared me to preach so that no man is left without "genuine" hope:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1936298&postcount=13 :godisgood:

Unfortunely, it seems that we live in a time that needs to address false doctrines while preaching the Gospel!

Merry Christmas to all!

 

[Herald]

:thumbs::applause::applause:...sad as it is many are not prepared to go over these things.

Well, I said my piece about Benjamin.

It says something about an individual who throws caustic bombs indiscriminately. Thankfully there are others on the Synergist side who take a more civil approach. They do not compromise what they believe, but they understand that a certain degree of civility is necessary in any debate.

One thing is for certain. Theological debate is not for the faint of heart.

 

[Winman]

Well, I said my piece about Benjamin.

It says something about an individual who throws caustic bombs indiscriminately. Thankfully there are others on the Synergist side who take a more civil approach. They do not compromise what they believe, but they understand that a certain degree of civility is necessary in any debate.

One thing is for certain. Theological debate is not for the faint of heart.

Obviously, you have never followed Iconoclast's posts. He is absolutely obnoxious just as Benjamin says, and CONSTANTLY questions the salvation of any person who does not agree perfectly with him. I understand completely why Benjamin speaks to him as he does, I also have been very caustic toward Iconoclast for the same reasons.

[Personal attack edited]

 

[Herald]

Obviously, you have never followed Iconoclast's posts. He is absolutely obnoxious just as Benjamin says, and CONSTANTLY questions the salvation of any person who does not agree perfectly with him. I understand completely why Benjamin speaks to him as he does, I also have been very caustic toward Iconoclast for the same reasons.

And you are comfortable defending those remarks as a Christian?

Winman, if you think about it, you are not exactly a Boy Scout. You can be rather obtuse in your posts.

When you say (about Iconoclast),

CONSTANTLY questions the salvation of any person who does not agree perfectly with him.

Really? Every person? May I call your attention to scripture?

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Are you prepared to provide evidence that Icon "constantly questions the salvation of any person who does not agree perfectly with him"? If not, how can you make an unsubstantiated accusation without it being considered bearing false witness? And I stress "any person" which means every person who disagrees with him.

 

[Winman]

And you are comfortable defending those remarks as a Christian?

Winman, if you think about it, you are not exactly a Boy Scout. You can be rather obtuse in your posts.

When you say (about Iconoclast),



Really? Every person? May I call your attention to scripture?



Are you prepared to provide evidence that Icon "constantly questions the salvation of any person who does not agree perfectly with him"? If not, how can you make an unsubstantiated accusation without it being considered bearing false witness? And I stress "any person" which means every person who disagrees with him.

Oh, so now my EXACT language is important? It is not important when you give the gospel and fail to tell people you do not believe Jesus died for all men? It is not important to tell folks EXACTLY what you believe that you have no idea if God has chosen to save them or not?

Well, well, now you are being a bit of a hypocrite aren't you?

Fact is, read Iconoclast's posts and you will see for yourself that he almost always questions the salvation of those who do not hold to Calvinism/DoG. He doesn't say it directly, but he implies it quite clearly. Benjamin has pointed it out many times. This is nothing new, we spoke of this some time back.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Obviously, you have never followed Iconoclast's posts. He is absolutely obnoxious just as Benjamin says, and CONSTANTLY questions the salvation of any person who does not agree perfectly with him. I understand completely why Benjamin speaks to him as he does, I also have been very caustic toward Iconoclast for the same reasons.

Yes & you know what opinions are like dont you. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

Yes & you know what opinions are like dont you. :smilewinkgrin:

Yep, and the ONE thing I like about Icon is that he can take it as good as he gives it. So, I tell him to his face what I think of him.

But anyone who denies that Iconoclast does not constantly imply that those who disagree with him are lost heretics has not been reading. Here is a perfect example;

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1935592&postcount=94

Notice how HoS calls him out for implying he is a heretic.

Icon.......This is a gaseous post which is utterly unwarranted by the discussion we have had thus far:
You have NOT addressed the point I made in my last response to you, but conveniently ignored it, and merely accussed me of promoting a list of heresies that no reasonable person would believe I cling to......but, for the sake of "lurkers"... I will rejoinder you again point-by-point:

This is an AVERAGE response from Icon. He talks this way all the time. If I had the energy I could easily go back and show you dozens of other examples.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, I said my piece about Benjamin.

It says something about an individual who throws caustic bombs indiscriminately. Thankfully there are others on the Synergist side who take a more civil approach. They do not compromise what they believe, but they understand that a certain degree of civility is necessary in any debate.

One thing is for certain. Theological debate is not for the faint of heart.

Sorry Herald but you dont understand this forum. There is no debating here. This is war with most of these people & I will let you draw your conclusions as to whom I am referring to.....so strap on your armor & grow a very calloused & thick skin. Thankfully your Jersey raised so start thinking that way if you want to hang around. Hint though....most don't.....they move on to other venues or leave altogether.

 

[Herald]

Oh, so now my EXACT language is important?

Yes. It is. When you accuse your brother in Christ, your exact language is important. Think about it: you are accusing your brother of sin. My goodness man, that does not concern you?

It is not important when you give the gospel and fail to tell people you do not believe Jesus died for all men? It is not important to tell folks EXACTLY what you believe that you have no idea if God has chosen to save them or not?

Well, well, now you are being a bit of a hypocrite aren't you?

A few posts back I said that you would not agree with me when I explained my thoughts on preaching the Gospel. Jesus died for sinners. Of that group (sinners) Christ effectually died only for the elect. Do I need to tell those I preach to that Christ died only for the elect? It depends. If the purpose of my sermon is evangelistic, no. I am not deceiving them. Christ died for sinners. How do I know if someone is elect? I am not concerned with that when I preach the Gospel. That knowledge is withheld from me. However, if I am doing an expository series on the Gospel of John, I am going to have to explain John 6:37 and 10:29. I am feeding the sheep at that point and have a responsibility to accurately handle the text. But you're changing the subject,so let me move us back to the discussion.

Fact is, read Iconoclast's posts and you will see for yourself that he almost always questions the salvation of those who do not hold to Calvinism/DoG. He doesn't say it directly, but he implies it quite clearly. Benjamin has pointed it out many times. This is nothing new, we spoke of this some time back.

The onus is on you to point out Icon's questioning people's salvation. I know that Icon and Benjamin do not see eye to eye on anything (big surprise), so I would not be surprised if that accusation popped up between them. But you are accusing Icon of doing it with everyone who disagrees with him. It is not wise to make blanket accusations because the responsibility is on you to prove it.