The Doctrines of Grace and the preaching of the Gospel

[Herald]

Sorry Herald but you dont understand this forum. There is no debating here. This is war with most of these people & I will let you draw your conclusions as to whom I am referring to.....so strap on your armor & grow a very calloused & thick skin. Thankfully your Jersey raised so start thinking that way if you want to hang around. Hint though....most don't.....they move on to other venues or leave altogether.

Brother, yes, I am Jersey strong! Trust me, I have elephant hide. I have to be careful about that though. I want the cross to be the offense, not me. If I act without thinking, or praying, I can be rather obtuse myself.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yep, and the ONE thing I like about Icon is that he can take it as good as he gives it. So, I tell him to his face what I think of him.

But anyone who denies that Iconoclast does not constantly imply that those who disagree with him are lost heretics has not been reading. Here is a perfect example;

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1935592&postcount=94

Notice how HoS calls him out for implying he is a heretic.



This is an AVERAGE response from Icon. He talks this way all the time. If I had the energy I could easily go back and show you dozens of other examples.

Yes I like that about him also......he has balls & intellect & aint nobody pushing him around. Good man that Icono:thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

Yes. It is. When you accuse your brother in Christ, your exact language is important. Think about it: you are accusing your brother of sin. My goodness man, that does not concern you?

A few posts back I said that you would not agree with me when I explained my thoughts on preaching the Gospel. Jesus died for sinners. Of that group (sinners) Christ effectually died only for the elect. Do I need to tell those I preach to that Christ died only for the elect? It depends. If the purpose of my sermon is evangelistic, no. I am not deceiving them. Christ died for sinners. How do I know if someone is elect? I am not concerned with that when I preach the Gospel. That knowledge is withheld from me. However, if I am doing an expository series on the Gospel of John, I am going to have to explain John 6:37 and 10:29. I am feeding the sheep at that point and have a responsibility to accurately handle the text. But you're changing the subject,so let me move us back to the discussion.



The onus is on you to point out Icon's questioning people's salvation. I know that Icon and Benjamin do not see eye to eye on anything (big surprise), so I would not be surprised if that accusation popped up between them. But you are accusing Icon of doing it with everyone who disagrees with him. It is not wise to make blanket accusations because the responsibility is on you to prove it.

I just showed a post where Heir of Salvation called Icon out for falsely accusing him of heresy. I will show it again.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1935592&postcount=94

Here is how HoS responded;

Icon.......This is a gaseous post which is utterly unwarranted by the discussion we have had thus far:
You have NOT addressed the point I made in my last response to you, but conveniently ignored it, and merely accussed me of promoting a list of heresies that no reasonable person would believe I cling to......but, for the sake of "lurkers"... I will rejoinder you again point-by-point:

All I can say Herald is you have not been paying attention. This is NORMAL behavior for Iconoclast. Anyone who disagrees with Calvinism/DoG he accuses of not knowing "truth". It is a subtle accusation that we are lost. It doesn't ruffle me, though he has talked this way to me DOZENS of times. But it does bother many.

You will not find another poster who uses this despicable and false form of argument more than Iconoclast.

So, if you want to call out someone for un-Christ-like behavior, Iconoclast is your man.

 

[Herald]

I just showed a post where Heir of Salvation called Icon out for falsely accusing him of heresy. I will show it again.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1935592&postcount=94

Here is how HoS responded;



All I can say Herald is you have not been paying attention. This is NORMAL behavior for Iconoclast. Anyone who disagrees with Calvinism/DoG he accuses of not knowing "truth". It is a subtle accusation that we are lost. It doesn't ruffle me, though he has talked this way to me DOZENS of times. But it does bother many.

You will not find another poster who uses this despicable and false form of argument more than Iconoclast.

So, if you want to call out someone for un-Christ-like behavior, Iconoclast is your man.

I read what you posted. Certainly Icon hit back on HoS hard. However, he did not say he wasn't saved. He did say where denial of the truth leads. But you accused him of more than just a post that can be interpreted differently depending on the viewpoint of the person reading it.

Winman, I've been accused of being a deceiver, a liar, and a false prophet. If it weren't for the fact that I consider the source when those accusations are made, I would probably be upset. Do you believe I am a deceiver, a liar, and a false prophet? If I was a betting man I'd wager that you do based on your cacophony of comments on the Doctrines of Grace. Since that is case how are we ever going to get along in this venue?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Brother, yes, I am Jersey strong! Trust me, I have elephant hide. I have to be careful about that though. I want the cross to be the offense, not me. If I act without thinking, or praying, I can be rather obtuse myself.

Thats true....but if you can ahhh, break somebodies nose intellectually you'd score big points :laugh:

I hope thats not being obtuse but it is for all its weirdness, quite true. We have had people of the Doctrines of Grace theology, after a while just throw up their hands in disgust & just quit. Actually Ive encountered people on the other side do the same. Remember tolerance is a virtue of the fearful. You are tolerant of only those that can injure you.

 

[Winman]

I read what you posted. Certainly Icon hit back on HoS hard. However, he did not say he wasn't saved. He did say where denial of the truth leads. But you accused him of more than just a post that can be interpreted differently depending on the viewpoint of the person reading it.

Winman, I've been accused of being a deceiver, a liar, and a false prophet. If it weren't for the fact that I consider the source when those accusations are made, I would probably be upset. Do you believe I am a deceiver, a liar, and a false prophet? If I was a betting man I'd wager that you do based on your cacophony of comments on the Doctrines of Grace. Since that is case how are we ever going to get along in this venue?

I believe you are deceived by false doctrine, but I don't think of you as an evil person whatsoever. You seem like a fellow who is interested in truth, although you seem to prefer the Doctrines of Grace over scripture many times. I understand completely, it is difficult to give up something you might have been taught for many years. I have always considered this when witnessing to a Catholic for example. This person has been taught by the persons they trust more than any in their life, their parents, that Catholicism is the correct way to believe. That is difficult to give up.

The problem with Iconoclast is he does not discuss differences, he simply accuses those who disagree with DoG of being lost heretics.

You are a little different, you seem able to discuss the issues to a degree.

 

[Herald]

Thats true....but if you can ahhh, break somebodies nose intellectually you'd score big points :laugh:

I hope thats not being obtuse but it is for all its weirdness, quite true. We have had people of the Doctrines of Grace theology, after a while just throw up their hands in disgust & just quit. Actually Ive encountered people on the other side do the same. Remember tolerance is a virtue of the fearful. You are tolerant of only those that can injure you.

Brother, my tolerance has its limits. I think I gave evidence to that a few hours ago (earlier in this thread). And I was raised in Hudson County, where you had to fight your way through childhood.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Brother, my tolerance has its limits. I think I gave evidence to that a few hours ago (earlier in this thread). And I was raised in Hudson County, where you had to fight your way through childhood.

Well I dont know where you are now but we are getting our 1st snow now....a white Christmas in the great state of NJ. Ive got biscotti ready for tomorrow morning with coffee

BTW, brother Icono is also Italian (a paisan) & from Long Island.

 

[OldRegular]

Yes I like that about him also......he has balls & intellect & aint nobody pushing him around. Good man that Icono:thumbsup:

It was decreed more than likely!

 

[percho]

I believe you are deceived by false doctrine, but I don't think of you as an evil person whatsoever. You seem like a fellow who is interested in truth, although you seem to prefer the Doctrines of Grace over scripture many times. I understand completely, it is difficult to give up something you might have been taught for many years. I have always considered this when witnessing to a Catholic for example. This person has been taught by the persons they trust more than any in their life, their parents, that Catholicism is the correct way to believe. That is difficult to give up.

The problem with Iconoclast is he does not discuss differences, he simply accuses those who disagree with DoG of being lost heretics.

You are a little different, you seem able to discuss the issues to a degree.

Let us say he is deceived. How does his being deceived affect his free will for if he is deceived he can not know he is deceived because he is, well deceived. He would be using his free will against what he believes to be the truth yet he is deceived not knowing he is deceived.

Just how many in the world are deceived? One thing for sure, those who disagree with me! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

Let us say he is deceived. How does his being deceived affect his free will for if he is deceived he can not know he is deceived because he is, well deceived. He would be using his free will against what he believes to be the truth yet he is deceived not knowing he is deceived.

Just how many in the world are deceived? One thing for sure, those who disagree with me! :smilewinkgrin:

Nobody is perfect, we are all deceived to one degree or another, but some folks are deceived far more than others.

How does it affect his free will? That would depend upon him wouldn't it? If you really want to know the truth and seek for it you will find it. If you do not really want to know the truth you will remain deceived.

The one resource we all have is the scriptures, the word of God. If we study the scriptures diligently, and pray and ask God to reveal his truth to us, he will.

 

[gb93433]

Ann, if your husband is preaching the Word of God then he is preaching the Gospel.

Could you explain how anyone is preaching the gospel when he preaches from Esther?

 

[OldRegular]

Could you explain how anyone is preaching the gospel when he preaches from Esther?

God chose Israel for the specific purpose of bringing the redeemer jesus Christ into the world. Out of Israel God chose Judah. Out of Judah God chose David and out of David God chose Mary. The Bible is not just a collection of stories, it is the Revelation of God's purpose in the Salvation of His people. It is the story of Redemption.

The Book of Esther records a critical part of that purpose. The tribe of Judah, the Jews, was carried into Babylon. Gods continued protection of the tribe of Judah, the Jews, through which He would bring our redeemer into the world is recorded in the book of Esther. God used Esther to prevent the slaughter of the Jews in Babylon.

So I have no problem seeing how one can preach from Esther and preach the Gospel!

 

[Iconoclast]

Could you explain how anyone is preaching the gospel when he preaches from Esther?

Esther is known for God's providential care of all he is in Covenant relation with.
Haman seeks to harm those who God has blessed...God always protects those that are His.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esther

Old Regulars post is right on the money as usual!

 

[Iconoclast]

And how many men are sinners Icon? :wavey:

For those who believe Romans 5...all men are dead sinners in Adam.

Those dead sinners ...whom Jesus came to save by a covenant death, do not remain in Adam.....So all sinners that Jesus came to save....are saved...He does not lose one who he died for. The sinners he died for are called the church, the sheep, the elect:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Herald]

Could you explain how anyone is preaching the gospel when he preaches from Esther?

Esther is a story of redemption. The tribe of Judah was rescued from annihilation by God raising up Mordecai and Esther. It is a story of encouragement to Christians. We are aliens in a foreign land, much like captive Judah. Even so, we are to live our lives in obedience, much as Esther and Mordecai did. This is a good testimony to God and man.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman,

The onus is on you to point out Icon's questioning people's salvation

He doesn't say it directly, but he implies it quite clearly

Case closed!

Notice how HoS calls him out for implying he is a heretic.

Fact is, read Iconoclast's posts and you will see for yourself that he almost always questions the salvation of those who do not hold to Calvinism/DoG. He doesn't say it directly, but he implies it quite clearly.

He is absolutely obnoxious

I also have been very caustic toward Iconoclast for the same reasons.

Or just maybe you are frustrated like your pal Benjamin,so you call names and make false accusations. Just because I answer you and show your falsehood does not mean all these paranoid ideas are taking place.....

What you think, what you think i imply, is your own thoughts.Do not inflict them and project them on me.
The bible speaks about each of the topics i address. You along with Hos did not understand my post....you know...the one you offered as proof...

i said as long as he and others deny the truth in Romans 5...we will......{pay attention Winman...I will type this in slow motion for you}

we......will ........never......come ......to agreement...........Did I mention salvation here?
Then we have this:
When you turn from scripture all that is left is:[Do you think this statement is not true?]
1] carnal philosophy

2]open theism

3] works gospels

4] novelties

5]failed theologies

6] new age ideas

7]extra biblical theologies

8]cults

9]apostates

I want no part of any of these.You are welcome to any or all of them,and you can continue to discuss these errors with the rest of my "fan club

Winman ...get control of yourself...

I HEAR and understand, dear friends, that you, alas, mistake yourselves against God and against myself, both by writing and speaking; using untrue, slanderous words and abominable, bitter backbiting, which are not becoming a christian; which I had not in the least expected from you; for I thought that you were so taught of the Lord that you would not thus enviously smite your poor brother who cannot now answer for himself; nor that you would, as is the case, defame your faithful friend, who, ac*cording to his small talent, has ever sincere*ly served you and all the pious in Christ, and thus thank him for his faithful service and love......menno simons

 

[Herald]

I believe you are deceived by false doctrine, but I don't think of you as an evil person whatsoever.

You see, I have no problem with this statement. I know this is what you think, and I can accept that you hold this opinion. In turn, I also believe you are deceived by false doctrine. I am sure that does not take you by surprise either. But understand this; I came to believe the Doctrines of Grace after spending nearly 20 years in various forms of Synergist evangelicalism. I did not stumble into the Reformed faith. I came kicking and screaming. My belief in the Synergist system was rock solid. I was a rabid and dye-hard believer. The Bible College I attended is well known for stocking the Synergist pool throughout this country. My journey included much reading, contemplation, and prayer.

Winman, I tell you this so that you will understand that I am not some neophyte that got caught up in a false teaching. I came to this understanding with not a little bit of trepidation and much anguish. What I have found is a community of people with a deep love for God and His Word. I see a profound sadness in the Reformed faith over the effects of sin; both in the world and also among God's people. Reformed evangelism is alive and well, albeit different than Synergist evangelicalism. While there is nothing wrong with handing out Gospel tracts, Reformed evangelism sees the Word as the primary means of conversion. Personal witness is a powerful tool that should lead to the sinner hearing the Word. One of the often voiced criticisms of the Reformed faith is that it creates a group of people who think they are privileged since they are God's elect. In actuality it creates a group of Christians who are profoundly humble and thankful that they have been rescued from sin.

As in all aspects of Christianity there are those who have fallen into error. There are Reformed churches who have become more enamored with their doctrine than Christ, just as their are Synergist churches that fallen into hyper-contextualization and embrace any new "thing" that comes along. These departures from the faith serve as a warning that the path off the Kings Highway is never far away.

Winman, we are not going to cease to disagree. That is fine. This is, after all, a debate forum.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

OK.,time to give it a rest. Its Christmas! Merry Christmas to all. :jesus:

 

[Winman]

For those who believe Romans 5...all men are dead sinners in Adam.

Those dead sinners ...whom Jesus came to save by a covenant death, do not remain in Adam.....So all sinners that Jesus came to save....are saved...He does not lose one who he died for. The sinners he died for are called the church, the sheep, the elect:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Oh, I do believe Romans 5, but I believe Romans 9:11 as well that says Esau and Jacob as babies had committed no sin. The scriptures are not written to infants.

But all MEN are sinners, and Jesus died for 100% of men. It is you that falsely teaches that Jesus only died for some.

You don't even know if Jesus died for you. :wavey::wavey: