The Doxology

[Martin Marprelate]

Here is my best attempt to differentiate between the two. There is a physiologic difference in how the vocal chords vibrate, but for all intents and purposes, it amounts to singing as a harmonic and tonal expression. Chanting is a more guttural, monotonic expression of sound. Here is an example of Anglican Plainchant:

The psalms are the most commonly chanted scriptures, as far as I know.

I was brought up Anglican.
The problem with this sort of thing is that it is a performance. The choir (or whatever) sings it and the people listen.
I don't see that as a description of NT worship.
The Puritans set the Psalms, and other Scriptures, to music with easily singable tunes so that the whole congregation could join in. If you sang 'While Shepherds Watched.....' over Christmas, that's an example.

The Doxology is fine. It's full of Scripture so there can be no objection to singing it. But there are plenty of other hymns that are full of Scripture. There is no virtue inherent in singing one particular hymn every single week.

 

[Cathode]

Hmm. In one sense, the Bible is a contract, a unilateral one in which God says “ this is how it is whether you like it or not”

Luke 10:29 “But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

Many use the scripture to justify themselves, using it as a legal document, searching for justifications and escape clauses.
This is not someone who has the Word imprinted on his heart by the Spirit.

They honour the word with their lips, but their hearts are far from it.

They legally discern, what they should Spiritually discern, and they completely miss the Forrest for the trees.

I remember a film years ago called Dead Poet Society, it demonstrates a similar thing.
The teacher was trying to impart something deeper to his students, and for the most part he was successful. But one student, just couldn’t grasp it.
A Poem to him was something that could be graphed for its level of enjoyment and rated for its value.
It’s a legal cerebral thing that stays on the page, not something of the heart and Spirit.

“ He has filled the hungry with good things, And sent the rich away empty-handed.”

How a man approaches Scripture determines what he takes away from it.

The Lawyer walks away with his hollow justification, he has had his reward. The word safely stays on the page. Taking his seat to the applause of his colleagues, and claps that fade to wind.

Those in the Spirit take away a heart burning with fire within him, that transforms his life and expresses that light to the world. In him the scripture leaves the page and gives life to and abides in his heart and manifests itself.

The Lawyer approaches with his sandals on, thinking in terms of legal ground, but is in fact standing on Holy ground.

That is why I said it depends on who I am talking to.

Those reading in the spirit the scripture of the candle as a sign of our inner light of Christ, will light a candle as little children. The scripture will leave page and manifest itself it their sight to their innocent delight. They act in the Spirit of the Word, an act of the heart soaked in the Word.

The Lawyer will read the same thing, and will immediately state that it nowhere obligates him to light a candle. And he will set about justifying himself by the letter of the word and not spirit of the word.

The Lawyer will cite the longevity of his learnings, and say as his colleagues of old “ who are you to lecture us “.

The little child will simply extend his arms and be lifted deep into the heart of the Word.

“At that same time Jesus was filled with the joy of the Holy Spirit, and he said, “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike. Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way.”

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Scripture itself uses the lighted candle as symbolic of the Light of Grace in our hearts by Jesus.
Why can’t you brother?

Many use the scripture to justify themselves, using it as a legal document, searching for justifications and escape clauses.

Others misuse the Scriptures to inveigle the unwary into pagan practices,

Those reading in the spirit the scripture of the candle as a sign of our inner light of Christ, will light a candle as little children. The scripture will leave page and manifest itself it their sight to their innocent delight. They act in the Spirit of the Word, an act of the heart soaked in the Word.

And so little children will suppose that because they have lit a candle in church it somehow in itself makes them right with God. 'Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.'

 

[Salty]

Hmm. In one sense, the Bible is a contract, a unilateral one in which God says “ this is how it is whether you like it or not”

I would agree with that -
However - many try to make an interpretation to fit their own beliefs - just saying.

 

[AustinC]

I would agree with that -
However - many try to make an interpretation to fit their own beliefs - just saying.

This is why the whole of scripture interprets the sentence in question.

 

[Walter]

I was brought up Anglican.
The problem with this sort of thing is that it is a performance. The choir (or whatever) sings it and the people listen.
I don't see that as a description of NT worship.
The Puritans set the Psalms, and other Scriptures, to music with easily singable tunes so that the whole congregation could join in. If you sang 'While Shepherds Watched.....' over Christmas, that's an example.

The Doxology is fine. It's full of Scripture so there can be no objection to singing it. But there are plenty of other hymns that are full of Scripture. There is no virtue inherent in singing one particular hymn every single week.

I have been to a number of Anglican churches. ALL the people sing the Doxology and chant the Psalms in Plainsong. Definitely not a performance as you assert. Where do you think the Puritans got the idea to put the Psalms to music? Anglican liturgy of course! Most Anglican hymns are pure scripture. Not so with so many evangelical songs. Ex:. Our God is an Awesome God, He reigns from Heave above, with wisdom power and love, our God is an awesome God (over and over and over and over). Talk about 'vein repetition'. Not much substance or scripture there. Anglicans, Catholics, Lutherans, and Orthodox churches sing the Psalms each and every service. Not so in your modern evangelical churches. They are full of 'sloppy kiss' lyrics and repetitive dribble.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I have been to a number of Anglican churches. ALL the people sing the Doxology and chant the Psalms in Plainsong.

Not in those churches that I have visited that use Plainsong. However, most Anglican churches in England no longer use the Psalms'

Where do you think the Puritans got the idea to put the Psalms to music? Anglican liturgy of course!

In fact no. The first thing that the Reformers and Puritans did was to reset the Psalms to simple tunes so that the people could sing them easily. Do you know 'All people that on earth do dwell' by William Kethe? That is a setting of Psalm 100 by a Protestant who fled England in 1554 to avoid being put to death under Queen Mary.

Most Anglican hymns are pure scripture.

In many Anglican churches over here they would be more likely to sing 'Kumbaya' than Scripture.

Not so with so many evangelical songs. Ex:. Our God is an Awesome God, He reigns from Heave above, with wisdom power and love, our God is an awesome God (over and over and over and over). Talk about 'vein repetition'. Not much substance or scripture there. Anglicans, Catholics, Lutherans, and Orthodox churches sing the Psalms each and every service. Not so in your modern evangelical churches. They are full of 'sloppy kiss' lyrics and repetitive dribble.

Is God not awesome then (eg. Psalms 68:35)? Is there no repetition in the Psalms (eg, Psalms 138)?
However, I will agree with you that some modern songs are of very poor standard, though others are excellent. Are there no modern hymns sung in Roman Catholic churches? There is nothing wrong with singing the Psalms and in my church we do so quite often, but it would be a shame never to sing the name of Jesus, so we do.
Here's an old hymn by John Newton sung to a modern tune:

 

[Cathode]

Others misuse the Scriptures to inveigle the unwary into pagan practices,

That’s right, if you light a candle, you’ll instantly become a pillar of Catholic and burn in Hell.
Keep your candles hid under a bushel of prejudices. It’s catholic so it must be evil.

Forget Israel legitimately used candles in their worship of God. In the Holiest part of the Temple. The candle light signifying the presence of God.

Forget the Gospel uses the lit candle as a sign of the inner Light of Christ present in us.

The spiritual communists have been warring against the light quite some time, truly expert lawyers of the word, but they know it not.
It’s a legal document to them that they discern legally by the letter, not by the Spirit. They pride themselves at being the true masters of the Word. In their minds they are righteous and saved no matter what.

It was the lawyers of the word that stood in judgement of Christ the Incarnate Word in chains.

And so little children will suppose that because they have lit a candle in church it somehow in itself makes them right with God. 'Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.'

Yes the Heart. Sometimes the outward appearance reflects the Heart as with little children.

And so the lawyer will suppose that his refusal to light a candle somehow in itself makes him right with God. More virtuous than all others.

Pride, especially intellectual pride is the most cunning of all the beasts in all the garden. It is so well hidden, particularly to those most poisoned by it.

Go light a candle at the clinics or in street ministry, see if abuse and beer bottles don’t get shied your way. The darkness knows what that light, those candles mean and signify, how is it you people don’t know.

Don’t be afraid, if that is what your problem is. They shun the light because their deeds are evil, but we who love Jesus and are of the Light should let the Light shine before men. Identify with Christ in every way, including lighting a candle.

 

[Walter]

I was brought up Anglican.
The problem with this sort of thing is that it is a performance. The choir (or whatever) sings it and the people listen.
I don't see that as a description of NT worship.
The Puritans set the Psalms, and other Scriptures, to music with easily singable tunes so that the whole congregation could join in. If you sang 'While Shepherds Watched.....' over Christmas, that's an example.

The Doxology is fine. It's full of Scripture so there can be no objection to singing it. But there are plenty of other hymns that are full of Scripture. There is no virtue inherent in singing one particular hymn every single week.

BTW, almost all evangelical churches I have been to have 'specials, choir anthems, duets, etc. etc. I guess if the whole congregation does not participate in the singing then it is just a performance, eh??

 

[Marooncat79]

Yes, much of modern evangelical so called worship is only really performance driven

 

[Martin Marprelate]

BTW, almost all evangelical churches I have been to have 'specials, choir anthems, duets, etc. etc. I guess if the whole congregation does not participate in the singing then it is just a performance, eh??

I think maybe you ought to get around more. My church does not have a choir (or a 'praise band) and all our singing is congregational. I could envisage a circumstance in which a member of the church with a good voice sang the first verse of a hymn which we were singing for the first time so that the others could get the tune better, but in fact we have never had the need to do that. Our wonderful pianist is able to lead us very well.

 

[Walter]

I think maybe you ought to get around more. My church does not have a choir (or a 'praise band) and all our singing is congregational. I could envisage a circumstance in which a member of the church with a good voice sang the first verse of a hymn which we were singing for the first time so that the others could get the tune better, but in fact we have never had the need to do that. Our wonderful pianist is able to lead us very well.

I actually have been to many evangelical churches and have yet to experience one that does only congregational singing. I think your church is probably an exception.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I actually have been to many evangelical churches and have yet to experience one that does only congregational singing. I think your church is probably an exception.

Well, my experience of churches in your fine country is limited, but on a visit in 2012, I attended 3 of them - one out on Long Island, one in Ithaca and one in central New York, and I don't recall anything but congregational singing, although two of them had 'praise bands.' But I was looking for Reformed churches rather than liberal or charismatic ones.
But I am aware of the failings of many churches that would call themselves 'evangelical.' The Reformers taught ecclesia reformata semper reformanda. The Reformed church is always in need of reformation. We should always be comparing our church's practice with the New Testament.
But should you ever have the blessing of visiting South West England, you will be very welcome to attend my little church and see how we do things. The great Baptist preacher C.H.Spurgeon had no organ or other instrument at the Metropolitan Tabernacle. All the singing was congregational and a capella, which means 'in the church.' He ministered to 10,000+ people every Lord's day at a time when London was much smaller than it is now.

 

[Walter]

Well, my experience of churches in your fine country is limited, but on a visit in 2012, I attended 3 of them - one out on Long Island, one in Ithaca and one in central New York, and I don't recall anything but congregational singing, although two of them had 'praise bands.' But I was looking for Reformed churches rather than liberal or charismatic ones.
But I am aware of the failings of many churches that would call themselves 'evangelical.' The Reformers taught ecclesia reformata semper reformanda. The Reformed church is always in need of reformation. We should always be comparing our church's practice with the New Testament.
But should you ever have the blessing of visiting South West England, you will be very welcome to attend my little church and see how we do things. The great Baptist preacher C.H.Spurgeon had no organ or other instrument at the Metropolitan Tabernacle. All the singing was congregational and a capella, which means 'in the church.' He ministered to 10,000+ people every Lord's day at a time when London was much smaller than it is now.

I hope to visit your beautiful country before I go to be with the Lord. I enjoy 'church hopping' when I travel and I would love to visit your church. I have learned much from you over my time as a member of this board and appreciate your kind responses to my questions and comments.

Unfortunately, the Anglican church in the UK is not well attended and you are correct, unless you are attending a morning prayer or vespers service the Psalms are not uttered or sung. The Psalms are very much a part of Anglican liturgies In other parts of the world such as Africa, where the Anglican church is growing at an incredible rate and the African Anglicans have not lost their theological moorings as in the UK, Canada and US.