The dreaded doctrine of election and perseverance.

[Barry Johnson]

This may sound like an unusual topic . But its my contention that the Doctrines of Election and Perseverence are the most damaging to the believer.
The reason for this is ultimately you cannot know the certainty of your election unless your perseverance is in keeping with your election and where it ought to be . This leads to the most crippling and paralysing thoughts that a believer can engage in . This for me is why Calvinsm has to be seriously questioned . This system is responsible for lack of growth within the body and lack of assurance and security leading to legalism and in all intentions and purposes a ' practical ' works based religion that has managed to claim itself as ' Christian ' . The Natural consequences of the System leads to ' Lordship salvation ' ,sold as a good thing and backed by virtue signalling and piety . Now I never argue against Calvinsm based on the philosophical arguments like ' fairness ' , freewill ect . But on this topic of Election and Perseverance this is where we get to the consequences of believing such doctrines.
I do hold to Eternal security, but nothing in the way of Lordship salvation.
This is a tough topic to wade through as there is a great deal of baggage and presuppositions abound in this area .
But what say you ?

 

[robustheologian]

This may sound like an unusual topic . But its my contention that the Doctrines of Election and Perseverence are the most damaging to the believer.

It is actually most damaging to the those who think they are believers but live their lives otherwise.

The reason for this is ultimately you cannot know the certainty of your election unless your perseverance is in keeping with your election and where it ought to be .

I don't see how, "we know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did." (1 John 2:3-6)

The Natural consequences of the System leads to ' Lordship salvation '

That's if you have a bad view of "lordship salvation"...but it clearly looks like what Jesus and the other Apostles taught.

I do hold to Eternal security, but nothing in the way of Lordship salvation.

How does one hold to eternal security and not Lordship salvation, and at the same time not embrace a theology of wreckless living?

 

[AustinC]

Barry, do you deny every passage in the Bible that tells us about Election, being Chosen by God, and Predestination?

It seems that you are very close to accusing God of being very damaging to humans.

 

[Dave G]

@Barry Johnson :

I've decided to reply with a few posts in this thread, so that you get a more complete picture "from the other side", if you get my meaning.

This may sound like an unusual topic . But its my contention that the Doctrines of Election and Perseverence are the most damaging to the believer.

To me, they are a comfort....
Knowing that the Lord chose me and caused me to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ).
That is real love, Barry...
Knowing that He cared for me enough to mark me out from before I was born, to receive His gifts.

However, I've wrestled with my own doubts about whether or not I'm saved over the years...
Which I've come to view as a healthy thing to do.

We, as believers, should examine ourselves to see if God really is working in us.
Eternal life is a very serious matter, my friend.

The reason for this is ultimately you cannot know the certainty of your election unless your perseverance is in keeping with your election and where it ought to be .

Sure I can.
Please see 1 John 4:7-21 through 1 John 5:1-15, and Romans 8:16.

But to answer the statement more directly,
would you prefer that a person not take their salvation seriously?

As a famous preacher once said, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ( Hebrews 10:31 ).

This leads to the most crippling and paralysing thoughts that a believer can engage in .

I'm not sure why those thoughts about election paralyze you, but they do not paralyze me.
In fact, quite the contrary.

But I confess that I sometimes agonize over whether or not many of the professing believers that I know will make it to the finish...
Whether or not they are of the elect.

 

[Dave G]

This for me is why Calvinsm has to be seriously questioned .

I'm going out on a limb here and equating "TULIP" with what you call, "Calvinism", Barry.
If it is, then I call it the truth...

At least in summary form.

The rest of what John Calvin taught...
I agree with some and some I toss in the can as error.

Infant baptism, persecution of others who profess Christ and a-millennialism are some of those that I throw out.

This system is responsible for lack of growth within the body and lack of assurance and security leading to legalism and in all intentions and purposes a ' practical ' works based religion that has managed to claim itself as ' Christian ' .

I don't consider the "doctrines of grace" a "system", Barry.

Again, as in past threads, I came to them strictly through my own personal studies in the Scriptures.
They can be and often are taught "systematically",
but to me, they dovetail quite neatly with all the rest that God has to say in His word.

As a reminder,
I was raised in Independent, Fundamental Baptist churches from the age of 12 before I stopped attending them in 2007.
To me, some of them constituted the most legalistic places I've ever been in,
next to perhaps many of the holiness "Arminian" churches who believe and teach loss of salvation.

They literally pounded personal performance into me each and every Sunday,
and made me wonder if I was ever doing or serving "enough" for the Lord.

So I suppose that depends on which side of the tracks you've been on.

The Natural consequences of the System leads to ' Lordship salvation ' ,sold as a good thing and backed by virtue signalling and piety .

It sounds to me like you're describing "loss of salvation" ( full-on, 5 point "Arminian" ) churches, not "Calvinistic" ones.

 

[Dave G]

Now I never argue against Calvinsm based on the philosophical arguments like ' fairness ' , freewill ect . But on this topic of Election and Perseverance this is where we get to the consequences of believing such doctrines.

What are the consequences, if I may ask, in teaching that God alone saves a person and perseveres them in their faith, apart from any effort of their own?
I'm not aware of any negative consequences when it comes to giving the Lord all the glory and credit for saving a person.

But if you're referring to the "Perseverance of the Saints", then I understand your feelings.
There is a certain fear involved, at least at first, in wondering if one is going to "make it" to the finish line.

That is where trust in the Lord comes in.
See 1 Peter 1:5 and especially Romans 8:12-17.

We rest in His power, not our own.

I do hold to Eternal security, but nothing in the way of Lordship salvation.

Perhaps you should define "lordship salvation", as there seems to be some confusion as to what it really is, at least on my end.
I was taught in the Baptist circles that I was involved in growing up, that, before a person could be saved, they had to "make Jesus the Lord of their lives"...
Do you know of a different definition?

As for "Eternal Security", its backdrop is election, Barry.
There is a reason why Christ's sheep are secure....
See Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2, as well as Romans 8 and Romans 9.

Part of it is His great love wherewith He loved us...
Even when we were dead in sins.

This is a tough topic to wade through as there is a great deal of baggage and presuppositions abound in this area .

I don't have any presuppositions about it, Barry.
I heard the Gospel of my salvation in an Independent Baptist church in 1978, and didn't "discover" election in the Bible until I was 37.

But ever since I was 12 years old,
I've read the words on the page and I've believed them.
I could give examples of those words, but we've been all through that in past threads.

To me, it isn't about "verses" and taking them out of context...
It's about believing what is actually written, and then understanding what is declared and ignoring what is implied.

 

[Barry Johnson]

It is actually most damaging to the those who think they are believers but live their lives otherwise.


I don't see how, "we know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did." (1 John 2:3-6)


That's if you have a bad view of "lordship salvation"...but it clearly looks like what Jesus and the other Apostles taught.


How does one hold to eternal security and not Lordship salvation, and at the same time not embrace a theology of wreckless living?

I hold to eternal security whilst avoiding LS by believing the promises of the scriptures.
Such as Eph 4.30 . Eph 1.12-13 . Eph 1.5 . Rom 8.23 ect .

 

[robustheologian]

I hold to eternal security whilst avoiding LS by believing the promises of the scriptures.
Such as Eph 4.30 . Eph 1.12-13 . Eph 1.5 . Rom 8.23 ect .

It's hard to read Eph. 1 and 1 Jn. 2 in parallel and not hold to Lordship salvation.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry, do you deny every passage in the Bible that tells us about Election, being Chosen by God, and Predestination?

It seems that you are very close to accusing God of being very damaging to humans.

I believe in those words

It's hard to read Eph. 1 and 1 Jn. 2 in parallel and not hold to Lordship salvation.

I notice people do the same with James and Romans also .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry, do you deny every passage in the Bible that tells us about Election, being Chosen by God, and Predestination?

It seems that you are very close to accusing God of being very damaging to humans.

I take each word in context. I don't have doctrines telling me what those words mean .

 

[Parashah]

"And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues."
1 Corinthians 12:28
New International Version

Why would you deny the role of God's ordained ministers such as Teachers whom God has put there?

 

[Parashah]

I take each word in context. I don't have doctrines telling me what those words mean .

Are you denying the ministry of Teachers as I pointed out in my other post?

 

[Barry Johnson]

"And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues."
1 Corinthians 12:28
New International Version

Why would you deny the role of God's ordained ministers such as Teachers whom God has put there?

Why are you thinking i deny these things?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Are you denying the ministry of Teachers as I pointed out in my other post?

is that related to this thread ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Are you denying the ministry of Teachers as I pointed out in my other post?

I don't deny these roles. Above all though of course is the scriptures.

 

[Parashah]

is that related to this thread ?

Doctrine is formed by those the Churches consider have a teaching gift.

To deny doctrine is to put yourself above those God has chosen to lead his people.

 

[Parashah]

is that related to this thread ?

Yes

 

[Parashah]

You seem confused on what doctrine is, yes?

 

[Parashah]

Consider this Scripture:

'Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet.

"Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.

How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?"

So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.'
Acts 8:30 (NIV)

 

[Barry Johnson]

You seem confused on what doctrine is, yes?

Doctrine is formed by those the Churches consider have a teaching gift.

To deny doctrine is to put yourself above those God has chosen to lead his people.

I place the scriptures higher than doctrines formed by men .