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The dreaded doctrine of election and perseverance.

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MB

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
Don't disparage.

Look at it this way, many people (even Calvinists) were saved under a free-will understanding. So that understanding helped them. Later many became Calvinists (some were saved as Calvinists). But just like those who were saved under a non-Calvinistic doctrine by necessity of understanding some Calvinists depend on Calvinism to understand the gospel (they cannot understand the gospel except through Calvinism).

Calvinism is, to them, the gospel message. Reformed theology is probably the simplest of all theologies. It is basic. Even a caveman can understand it :) . So it takes away a lot of more complex ideas other understandings incorporate. Why was I saved? Cause God chose me. Why did God choose me? Don't know, but it had nothing to do with me. How was I saved? God punished Jesus in my place paying the penalty for my sins. What about those who were not saved? Jesus could not have died for them otherwise they would be saved.

I would caution you about disparaging other people's understanding because people understand things differently. What if the only way someone could understand the gospel was through a Calvinistic lens? They hold a very simple theology, but faith is still in Christ.

It does not matter if Calvinism is not "deep" as long as it can be a vehicle to communicate the gospel to people. Jesus can make them stand just as He can make you and I stand.
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It seems to me what Calvinist says is the gospel really is has nothing to do with what it actually is, because to me the Gospel is the Bible alone. This means with out reinterpretation and philosophy but taking God's word as it is written and not as it is imagined.
MB
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
MB said:
It seems to me what Calvinist says is the gospel really is has nothing to do with what it actually is, because to me the Gospel is the Bible alone. This means with out reinterpretation and philosophy but taking God's word as it is written and not as it is imagined.
MB
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Romans 8 Calvinist Manifesto
 
B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
We are the Gentile sheep of His flock, as we who had no hope are now part of His own!
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Is that because you believe we are of the ' other fold ' The problem with that is we have a clear verse that says that He ONLY came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel and he told Jews to only preach to other Jews. We see no break in this mission all the way up to Acts 11 .
17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18¶When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

19¶Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
MB said:
It seems to me what Calvinist says is the gospel really is has nothing to do with what it actually is, because to me the Gospel is the Bible alone. This means with out reinterpretation and philosophy but taking God's word as it is written and not as it is imagined.
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Amen to the highlighted,
and especially the underlined, MB.
 
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B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
Don't disparage.

Look at it this way, many people (even Calvinists) were saved under a free-will understanding. So that understanding helped them. Later many became Calvinists (some were saved as Calvinists). But just like those who were saved under a non-Calvinistic doctrine by necessity of understanding some Calvinists depend on Calvinism to understand the gospel (they cannot understand the gospel except through Calvinism).

Calvinism is, to them, the gospel message. Reformed theology is probably the simplest of all theologies. It is basic. Even a caveman can understand it :) . So it takes away a lot of more complex ideas other understandings incorporate. Why was I saved? Cause God chose me. Why did God choose me? Don't know, but it had nothing to do with me. How was I saved? God punished Jesus in my place paying the penalty for my sins. What about those who were not saved? Jesus could not have died for them otherwise they would be saved.

I would caution you about disparaging other people's understanding because people understand things differently. What if the only way someone could understand the gospel was through a Calvinistic lens? They hold a very simple theology, but faith is still in Christ.

It does not matter if Calvinism is not "deep" as long as it can be a vehicle to communicate the gospel to people. Jesus can make them stand just as He can make you and I stand.
Click to expand...
I don't believe its possible to understand the true gospel through a calvinistic lens . It is impossible to view the true Gospel this way . I will say though and I think your saying the same thing . And that is calvinists become calvinists AFTER they are saved . So I don't say calvinists are necessarily unsaved ..
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Barry Johnson said:
I don't believe its possible to understand the true gospel through a calvinistic lens . It is impossible to view the true Gospel this way . I will say though and I think your saying the same thing . And that is calvinists become calvinists AFTER they are saved . So I don't say calvinists are necessarily unsaved ..
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It depends, I suppose, how you hold Calvinism and how you define the "true gospel".

I think the gospel is defined in the Gospels and by Christ (the Kingdom and how we can be a part of that Kingdom through the New Covenant).

If a Calvinist believes Calvinism to be the gospel itself, then I absolutely agree as it is "another gospel". But if a Calvinist believes Calvinism to be his or her understanding of aspects concerning the gospel then its a different matter.

The difference is being able to discern where Scripture ends and one's understanding begins.

Discernment is key. A Calvinist who can discern scripture knows his or her theological system is limited by the human condition. Calvinists unable to discern scripture believe Calvinism to be deep things of God (along the lines of Gnosticism).
 
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AustinC

Well-Known Member
MB said:
Well I was going to say it is hypocrisy until you called it with your own words. Who appointed you as Judge of all?. You judge us by your doctrines not by scripture. The pharisee's did the same as you.
MB
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Hebrews 5:11-14
About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JonC said:
It depends, I suppose, how you hold Calvinism and how you define the "true gospel".

I think the gospel is defined in the Gospels and by Christ (the Kingdom and how we can be a part of that Kingdom through the New Covenant).

If a Calvinist believes Calvinism to be the gospel itself, then I absolutely agree as it is "another gospel". But if a Calvinist believes Calvinism to be his or her understanding of aspects concerning the gospel then its a different matter.

The difference is being able to discern where Scripture ends and one's understanding begins.

Discernment is key. A Calvinist who can discern scripture knows his or her theological system is limited by the human condition. Calvinists unable to discern scripture believe Calvinism to be deep things of God (along the lines of Gnosticism).
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As Spurgeon rightly stated, Calvinism is the Gospel, as in the best way to explain what God meant in the scriptures concerning salvation!
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Yeshua1 said:
As Spurgeon rightly stated, Calvinism is the Gospel, as in the best way to explain what God meant in the scriptures concerning salvation!
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You need to read Spurgeon as a whole in context.

He actually said that Calvinism is the gospel but that he has a natural inclination towards focusing on divine sovereignty. His example was that Arminianism is the gospel to the Arminian (paraphrasing).

When I spoke of the the effects of the human condition I was borrowing from Spurgeon.
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JonC said:
You need to read Spurgeon as a whole in context.

He actually said that Calvinism is the gospel but that he has a natural inclination towards focusing on divine sovereignty. His example was that Arminianism is the gospel to the Arminian (paraphrasing).

When I spoke of the the effects of the human condition I was borrowing from Spurgeon.
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He affirmed that salvation was from start to finish of the lord....
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
Hebrews 5:11-14
About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
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One thing for certain my teacher will never be like you.I have a pastor, I have a teacher and I have the Holy Spirits who encourages me and corrects me when I'm wrong. I'm sure I do not need anyone with such grudge against as you have against me. Get this straight you are not a teacher you believe in your own ideas not the truth of scripture. You can't teach me anything because what you are
MB
 
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Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
process!
Read carefully, not saying Calvinism is the scripture, nor inspired, but best way to explain what scriptures mean regardinmg salvation
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I've found the moment you say this system or that theology is the best way to explain the bible or the best way to explain the gospel you've already stunted your growth . This is the least of the problems in reformed theology . But I would say the moment you align yourself wholeheartedly to a denomination , systematic theology or worldview you have already ran into trouble. We all at some point fall into one theological ditch or another and then find we have to shed off the baggage we've picked up along unwittingly. It should be so obvious. It's named after another man , you'd think that would be a red flag . But no , folks happily sail into the harbour of ' scholarly ' opinions of men, theological giants of old . I mean who can argue with theses men of old who gave us these darn systems to begin with. " Regeneration precedes faith " Amazing!!! you couldn't imagine it was possible to pull off ,but here we are sadly .
 
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