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Featured The ECF were Pretribulational

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jope, Mar 24, 2017.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Heresy is a teaching contrary to orthodox doctrine. Origen's view of the Atonement, for example, would be considered heresy by most (it is contrary to both Protestant and Catholic doctrine). Apostasy deals not with orthodox faith but renounce of religious belief (an abandonment of the Christian faith would be apostasy). All apostasy is heresy, but not all heresy is apostasy.
     
    #61 JonC, Apr 3, 2017
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    What I wrote was:
    I gave four examples from Scripture. If you disagree with my statement, you should deal with those.
    What I mean is that right from the start there was a downgrade in doctrine which led to a whole variety of errors. For example, Ignatius of Antioch gives a good witness to the deity of Christ, but he teaches a monarchical episcopacy which sowed the seeds of the Papacy.
    Justin Martyr is weak on the deity of Christ; J.W.s will quote him as someone who believed in their doctrines. He was also the first to conflate baptism with regeneration.
    Irenaeus was the first (I think) to teach the fallacy of Apostolic Succession ('the Apostle John taught Polycarp; Polycarp taught me, therefore I am teaching the truth').
    Cyprian was the first to teach infant baptism.
    And so on.

    I don't say that no one should read the ECFs. My favourites are the Letter to Diognetus, which is a wonderful witness to the doctrine of imputation, and Polycarp who shows how familiar he was with the Canon of Scripture. But we shouldn't draw our doctrine from them.[/QUOTE]
     
    #62 Martin Marprelate, Apr 4, 2017
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Baptismal regeneration is a major heresy, as that denies the Gospel of Christ!
     
    #63 Yeshua1, Apr 4, 2017
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They were tiht in some areas, but really went bad in others!
     
    #64 Yeshua1, Apr 4, 2017
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    [/QUOTE]
    Good foir historical research, not so much for our theology!
     
    #65 Yeshua1, Apr 4, 2017
  6. Jope

    Jope Member
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    That would explain your statement below:

    "The" apostasy, as in, saints reverting or backsliding? Yes. This has always been happening in the history of sainthood. Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, etc. Is it any surprise we find backsliding in the centuries after the apostles then? No. Backsliding happened in their days too. Peter and Judas, to give some examples. To restrict backsliding to the church fathers is narrow minded prejudice. The Scripture you reference is nothing short of narrow minded prejudice too: acts 20:28ff is speaking of men like Marcion who used to be in the correct line of teaching and had great number of Christian followers, 2 Thessalonians 2 could not be attributed to the church fathers, same with 1 Timothy 1:18ff, which paul specifically restricts to Hymenaeus and Alexander and 1 John 2:18 is speaking of the antichrist. I don't know of anyone that would be so ignorantly daring to state that the church fathers were antichrist(s). Isaiah 8:20 doesn't support your position and doesn't disprove mine.


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    #66 Jope, Apr 4, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
  7. Jope

    Jope Member
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    Prove to me that the bible itself, and no external authority, claims this.

    Did you pay attention to my statement and quotation(s) of the church fathers that claim other non-16th-century-Protestantism-books are scripture?


    Says who? Luther? He claimed that some of the bible wasn't inspired and questioned whether other books should be taken out of the bible. Not to mention his actual removal of some texts that the ancients considered "Scripture." Maybe it's time you lay aside the dogma you were taught in Sunday school and start thinking for yourself on these things.

    And let me guess, Sunday school taught you they were "bad guys."




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    #67 Jope, Apr 4, 2017
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Jews NEVER accepted other than the OT canon as being inspired by God, and was agreed upon those books atime of Jesus, and the early Church agreed upon thge NT canon by end of first century pretty much!

    They alone witnessed to being insired, as others had false theology, inaccurate historical accounts eyc!

    And liberal/critical Christians refuse to believe in what Jesus stated concerning the sceiptures and Himself!
     
    #68 Yeshua1, Apr 4, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Jope

    Jope Member
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    Ya there's probably no point in saying anymore to you. You're wise in your own mind and repeat your ignorant mantra based on lack of study in place of the truth. Have a good one yesh


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    #69 Jope, Apr 4, 2017
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    What I just posted is what reputable historians would also tell you!
     
    #70 Yeshua1, Apr 4, 2017
  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    To those who may be interested, Irenaeus seems to have been the originator of the cult of Mary.

    'Just as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel [Satan] so that she fled from God having disobeyed His word, so Mary received good news by the word of an angel, so that she might give birth to God in obeying His word. And if Eve disobeyed God, mary was persuaded to be obedient to Him, so that the virgin Mary might become an intercessor for the virgin [!] Eve. And thus, just as the human race fell into bondage to death through a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin; the disobedience of a virgin has been balanced in the opposite scale by a virgin's obedience.' [Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 3:22:4 and 5:19:1]
     
    #71 Martin Marprelate, Apr 4, 2017
  12. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Irenaeus is also the originator of the 90s date for Revelation.
     
    #72 Covenanter, Apr 4, 2017
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Like most of the ECF, dead right in some, dead wrong in others!
     
    #73 Yeshua1, Apr 4, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Satan was getting that into the church early on, eh?
     
    #74 Yeshua1, Apr 4, 2017
  15. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    If you read & corrected your own posts you would write less rubbish.
     
    #75 Covenanter, Apr 5, 2017
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The ECF kept some of the Apostolic theology, but really distorted it in others!
     
    #76 Yeshua1, Apr 5, 2017
  17. Jope

    Jope Member
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    For one, that's not properly cited, for another, that quote is not saying what you think it's saying and it's in no way erroneous.


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    #77 Jope, Apr 5, 2017
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Think the Church of rome would disagree with you!
     
    #78 Yeshua1, Apr 5, 2017
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